fugacity Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I see a lot of No's in this thread, but I think a lot of people are shy to admit that they made a mistake of getting into medicine for money and prestige . I won't preach to the choir about how money should not be your goal for getting into medicine, but I want to admit that we get remunerated pretty well compared to other professions. Engineering is brought up a lot, and like NLenger, I also come from an engineering background. I have to say that 100k for a starting salary is almost unheard of unless you work in an oil field/mining site away from the city. At those sites, the trades people can make more than you. If you work in a big city, your starting pay is likely in the 60ish range. You can exceed 100k, but that takes time. So in absolute terms, a starting salary of average 200k is very good, if you don't consider the stress, hours, and that the best years of your life were spent in school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I see a lot of No's in this thread, but I think a lot of people are shy to admit that they made a mistake of getting into medicine for money and prestige . I won't preach to the choir about how money should not be your goal for getting into medicine, but I want to admit that we get remunerated pretty well compared to other professions. Engineering is brought up a lot, and like NLenger, I also come from an engineering background. I have to say that 100k for a starting salary is almost unheard of unless you work in an oil field/mining site away from the city. At those sites, the trades people can make more than you. If you work in a big city, your starting pay is likely in the 60ish range. You can exceed 100k, but that takes time. This right here. As the husband of someone who OWNS an Engineering firm I can tell you flat out most engineers in Civil at least are NOT making $100K even after 10 years in the biz and if they are, they are not doing Engineering any longer (manager, sales, biz dev, city, etc). Add to the fact that if you are academically inclined and enjoy learning there isn't a boat load of that going on either in private industry. In fact, in private industry at the big firms you are basically stuck specializing in one type of engineering all day, every day with limited variety. Economics of absolute advantage in play here. Some disciplines may very but when we get together with her other engineering colleagues from other fields (generally mechanical and electrical) its not vastly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Molar Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think money is not the primary reason, but prestige might play an important role in the applicants (and wannabes) mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathToMed Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 True enough, but even if you pay doctors and janitors the same - I suspect more people would prefer to be doctors. I'm not even sure this is true - certainly it would be on these forums, or among other well educated people. But I've worked janitorial jobs, it's actually a pretty comfortable job (the pay stinks though). For me personally it wasn't intellectually stimulating enough, but for many people (heck I daresay, a typical person) this is actually a selling point. A lot of people don't want to think these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I'm not even sure this is true - certainly it would be on these forums, or among other well educated people. But I've worked janitorial jobs, it's actually a pretty comfortable job (the pay stinks though). For me personally it wasn't intellectually stimulating enough, but for many people (heck I daresay, a typical person) this is actually a selling point. A lot of people don't want to think these days. Agreed! Most who I have worked over the past 12 years in biz tend to fall into wanting the money without much effort to acquire it. Never directly asked but few seem interested in "life long" learning or doing something great at work. In fact, for those who like that they do whatever they can to derail those efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makingfetchhappen Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 This right here. As the husband of someone who OWNS an Engineering firm I can tell you flat out most engineers in Civil at least are NOT making $100K even after 10 years in the biz and if they are, they are not doing Engineering any longer (manager, sales, biz dev, city, etc). Add to the fact that if you are academically inclined and enjoy learning there isn't a boat load of that going on either in private industry. In fact, in private industry at the big firms you are basically stuck specializing in one type of engineering all day, every day with limited variety. Economics of absolute advantage in play here. Some disciplines may very but when we get together with her other engineering colleagues from other fields (generally mechanical and electrical) its not vastly different. I hear the same thing re salary from those I know in mechanical engineering. Three of my friends from high school went through for that. I've also seen from them that you cannot just graduate from engineering and then rest on your laurels. The three I know graduated almost ten years ago. Since then, one has moved to the oil sands, another did his masters full time, and another did an MBA part time. I know that one of them wakes up at 5 am on weekdays to get to work at 6 am, so that he can leave around 5 or 6 pm and spend some time with his young children. He also works weekends sometimes and I assume some late nights. I only know his schedule because his wife is one of my close friends, so it comes up when I ask about her routine. Given the source, I am pretty sure it's not an inflated estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thsc Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 I hear the same thing re salary from those I know in mechanical engineering. Three of my friends from high school went through for that. I've also seen from them that you cannot just graduate from engineering and then rest on your laurels. The three I know graduated almost ten years ago. Since then, one has moved to the oil sands, another did his masters full time, and another did an MBA part time. I know that one of them wakes up at 5 am on weekdays to get to work at 6 am, so that he can leave around 5 or 6 pm and spend some time with his young children. He also works weekends sometimes and I assume some late nights. I only know his schedule because his wife is one of my close friends, so it comes up when I ask about her routine. Given the source, I am pretty sure it's not an inflated estimate. That's good to know. I find it really annoying when often people in med. complain about how their lives would be so much easier if they had gone into engineering or something else. While that is true to some extent, I think often people in medicine underestimate the time commitment required from other professions as well. A fellow in surgery was telling me the other day that he would be having the best life if he had gone into law or engineering. That's very ignorant and naive in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathToMed Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 In my experience (teaching, TAing, as well as anecdotally through conversation with friends) a lot of premeds would have panic attacks when confronted with some of the math engineers put up with on a day to day basis. A lot of premeds think that because they did alright in introductory calculus that they're math geniuses, when even the step up to vector calculus shakes a lot of people. Let alone getting into the complex analysis (ie. Complex Numbers, not just colourful wording) necessary to study the most basic of phenomena, like say, alternating current. It's also not fun trying to outcompete outsourcing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathToMed Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Physicians have to study how the body works and all of the intricacies therein. Engineers have to study how reality works and all the intricacies wherein... When a physician screws up (missing some minute detail), someone dies...yet when an engineer screws up (forgetting to carry the 1) hundreds could die. Every time there's any sort of product recall, its a reminder of that fact... There's a reason why engineers bear the iron ring as a constant reminder of the weight of their responsibility...its not easy. (I'm also not an engineer, I'm a mathematician to set the record straight). EDIT - sorry meant to hit the edit button but hit quote...oops, lousy phones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Engineering is brought up a lot, and like NLenger, I also come from an engineering background. I have to say that 100k for a starting salary is almost unheard of unless you work in an oil field/mining site away from the city. At those sites, the trades people can make more than you. If you work in a big city, your starting pay is likely in the 60ish range. You can exceed 100k, but that takes time. So in absolute terms, a starting salary of average 200k is very good, if you don't consider the stress, hours, and that the best years of your life were spent in school It seems like every time this topic comes up, I wind up posting the following: Ontario Engineering Salaries, by all levels of responsibility: Under 2 years from graduation $58k 2-4 years $64.5k 5-7 years $75.1k 8-10 years $85.7k 11-15 years $95.1k 16-20 years $103.7k 21-25 years $108k over 25 years $117.1k Source: 2013 Ontario Society of Professional Engineers Employer Compensation Survey Usual caveat about applying population data to individuals applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
武田信玄 Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Hah, I got this question asked a lot lately (in real life). Also whenever people asked me this, they always gave me a pseudo-intellectual/douchebag look like they are judging me or something. So you know what, after seeing this questino again here, from now on I'm just going to say: "Yes, 100% for the money. You mad bro?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 It seems like every time this topic comes up, I wind up posting the following: Ontario Engineering Salaries, by all levels of responsibility: Under 2 years from graduation $58k 2-4 years $64.5k 5-7 years $75.1k 8-10 years $85.7k 11-15 years $95.1k 16-20 years $103.7k 21-25 years $108k over 25 years $117.1k Source: 2013 Ontario Society of Professional Engineers Employer Compensation Survey Usual caveat about applying population data to individuals applies. Some thoughts: 1) Majority of engineers making =>$100K are not doing engineering any longer or the bulk of their work is decidedly not engineering. They are managers now. 2) I'd be keen to see this survey stratified by municipal/government and private industry. Municipal and government grossly overpay on market wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhanoori Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Honestly, I just can't see myself doing anything else....Medicine is my interest. But to really answer your question, as long as I have enough for living comfortably (no huge financial problems), then I'm sure I'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Some thoughts: 1) Majority of engineers making =>$100K are not doing engineering any longer or the bulk of their work is decidedly not engineering. They are managers now. 2) I'd be keen to see this survey stratified by municipal/government and private industry. Municipal and government grossly overpay on market wages. I have never seen government engineering salaries that exceeded private industry in the equivalent field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I have never seen government engineering salaries that exceeded private industry in the equivalent field. neither have I actually. That would be....strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I have never seen government engineering salaries that exceeded private industry in the equivalent field. 10 min search: https://www.brainhunter.com/frontoffice/seekerViewJobDetailAction.do?sitecode=pl607&jobId=2112872&page=search (min. 7 years exp.) https://www.brainhunter.com/frontoffice/seekerViewJobDetailAction.do?sitecode=pl389&jobId=2112661&page=search (no min. exp listed) https://careers.cityofkingston.ca/CL2/xweb/Xweb.asp?tbtoken=YVtYQBhQQVU4ZXEuJS5ALiReNVBQEVRUdGIsB0xYBiNZTlEJC2NFXDYcUTYaBWZyLiUuQC4kXkwgGVtUSHVjXjpQ&chk=dFlbQBJQ&CLID=61577&page=jobdetails&JobID=J1214-0173&brid=89015〈=1 (min. 5 years exp.) https://careers-metrolinx.icims.com/jobs/3025/manager%2c-station-infrastructure-projects-%2815-101%29/job?mobile=false&width=1350&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-300&jun1offset=-240 (min. 8 years exp.) http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview.aspx?JobID=76116 (no min. exp listed) https://www.brainhunter.com/frontoffice/seekerViewJobDetailAction.do?sitecode=pl607&jobId=2109515&page=search (min. 3 years experience) https://careers-mississauga.icims.com/jobs/2558/gis-specialist-%E2%80%93-storm-water/job?mobile=false&width=543&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-300&jun1offset=-240 (min. 3 years exp.) http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview.aspx?JobID=76165 (no min. exp. listed) https://jobs-richmondhill.icims.com/jobs/1938/senior-municipal-inspector/job?mobile=false&width=1350&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-300&jun1offset=-240 (civil diploma + min 5 years exp) http://clients.njoyn.com/cl2/xweb/Xweb.asp?tbtoken=YVtYRx5bSlU4FHB4RFFRYCBUdGFfd0xYBlIiTil5B21FXTZqLTUSAhFyLiUuQC4kXkZRGVtUSXJtXDpQ&chk=dFlbQBJQ&clid=60295&Page=JobDetails&Jobid=J0115-0797&BRID=91522〈=1 (civil diploma + min 3 years exp salary range $78K - $86K) Keep in mind municipal/government have GREAT health benefits, pension, work less hours, and little job stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I have never seen government engineering salaries that exceeded private industry in the equivalent field. The OSPE survey touches on this with a bar chart part-way through the report. I'm hesitant to paste the chart here because of copyright reasons, but "non-durable manufacturing" had the highest mean compensation, "other" was the lowest mean. The spread between biggest and smallest candle was was about $40k, and "public sector & not-for-profit" was fifth of the seven candles. On the other hand, I guess it depends on what you call "government". Many many moons ago when I worked for Ontario Hydro (the name itself should tell you how long ago we're talking), it was clear that the effort:reward ratio was pretty out of whack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 10 min search: https://www.brainhunter.com/frontoffice/seekerViewJobDetailAction.do?sitecode=pl607&jobId=2112872&page=search (min. 7 years exp.) https://www.brainhunter.com/frontoffice/seekerViewJobDetailAction.do?sitecode=pl389&jobId=2112661&page=search (no min. exp listed) https://careers.cityofkingston.ca/CL2/xweb/Xweb.asp?tbtoken=YVtYQBhQQVU4ZXEuJS5ALiReNVBQEVRUdGIsB0xYBiNZTlEJC2NFXDYcUTYaBWZyLiUuQC4kXkwgGVtUSHVjXjpQ&chk=dFlbQBJQ&CLID=61577&page=jobdetails&JobID=J1214-0173&brid=89015〈=1 (min. 5 years exp.) https://careers-metrolinx.icims.com/jobs/3025/manager%2c-station-infrastructure-projects-%2815-101%29/job?mobile=false&width=1350&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-300&jun1offset=-240 (min. 8 years exp.) http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview.aspx?JobID=76116 (no min. exp listed) https://www.brainhunter.com/frontoffice/seekerViewJobDetailAction.do?sitecode=pl607&jobId=2109515&page=search (min. 3 years experience) https://careers-mississauga.icims.com/jobs/2558/gis-specialist-%E2%80%93-storm-water/job?mobile=false&width=543&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-300&jun1offset=-240 (min. 3 years exp.) http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview.aspx?JobID=76165 (no min. exp. listed) https://jobs-richmondhill.icims.com/jobs/1938/senior-municipal-inspector/job?mobile=false&width=1350&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-300&jun1offset=-240 (civil diploma + min 5 years exp) http://clients.njoyn.com/cl2/xweb/Xweb.asp?tbtoken=YVtYRx5bSlU4FHB4RFFRYCBUdGFfd0xYBlIiTil5B21FXTZqLTUSAhFyLiUuQC4kXkZRGVtUSXJtXDpQ&chk=dFlbQBJQ&clid=60295&Page=JobDetails&Jobid=J0115-0797&BRID=91522〈=1 (civil diploma + min 3 years exp salary range $78K - $86K) Keep in mind municipal/government have GREAT health benefits, pension, work less hours, and little job stress. aren't most of those management roles? Salary is kind of inline (at worst) with industry pay(?) gah, or am I missing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makingfetchhappen Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think the moral of the story is that you aren't going to get ahead financially by choosing a non-med path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 aren't most of those management roles? Salary is kind of inline (at worst) with industry pay(?) gah, or am I missing something Some are and some aren't and at the low-end salary listed they may be in-line with private industry pay but the high end is far above typical industry for the experience scale. However, the biggest factor is what I wrote afterwards. These positions include better hours, better health benefits, pensions, and less stress than those in private industry. Point is, government (read: municipal) engineers/technologists are paid much better than they would be in private industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think the moral of the story is that you aren't going to get ahead financially by choosing a non-med path. I am not so sure about that. Ceteris paribus, I think you can/will but certainly not to the extent that the majority in medicine (at least in Canada) have/will. P.S. not sure why my mind is seemingly fixated on economics this morning lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makingfetchhappen Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Cetaris paribus indeed (I had to Google that).Yes, you can make more money being an entrepreneur, that's for sure. But, it's not a clear path like medicine. I personally know a handful of people who have left their jobs to become "entrepreneurs" who I venture have not made a cent. So, at the end of the day, doctors can look outward and say "damn, I would have made more as an entrepreneur", but not really, because the stats say your company is belly-up within a year.They also cannot say that they would be better off as an engineer or other professional.I like how no one says "I would have been better off as a nurse". Nurses have a salary and benefits that probably exceed most private sector jobs that people say they would be "better off" in, like engineering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Assuming that 1) The pay was at least equal to the other allied health fields, if not slightly more (given the added years of education , training, and responsibility involved) 2) I didn't have to go into a large amount of debt 3) I didn't lose all the potential years of extra income + investment with compounding interest Then yes I would do it. Otherwise I would just stick with being a nurse, RT, paramedic or some other allied health field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thsc Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Assuming that 1) The pay was at least equal to the other allied health fields, if not slightly more (given the added years of education , training, and responsibility involved) 2) I didn't have to go into a large amount of debt 3) I didn't lose all the potential years of extra income + investment with compounding interest Then yes I would do it. Otherwise I would just stick with being a nurse, RT, paramedic or some other allied health field. What would you invest in with compounding interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Cetaris paribus indeed (I had to Google that). Yes, you can make more money being an entrepreneur, that's for sure. But, it's not a clear path like medicine. I personally know a handful of people who have left their jobs to become "entrepreneurs" who I venture have not made a cent. So, at the end of the day, doctors can look outward and say "damn, I would have made more as an entrepreneur", but not really, because the stats say your company is belly-up within a year. They also cannot say that they would be better off as an engineer or other professional. I like how no one says "I would have been better off as a nurse". Nurses have a salary and benefits that probably exceed most private sector jobs that people say they would be "better off" in, like engineering. a nurse that organizes his/her career properly will make a killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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