Did You Go Into Medicine For The Money

[makingfetchhappen]

Or perhaps those friends are self important douchebags?

LOL. If your spouse makes significantly less than you, you're going to end up giving quite a bit of your disposable income to them. It's not like you can say "let's go on vacation this month honey, oh, you cannot afford it? Okay, I'll send you a postcard!". So all of a sudden a lot of things cost you double what they did before. I don't know if it's douchey to try to want to avoid that. 

 

[aaronjw]

Yes. It is douchey

[bakercyclist]

LOL. If your spouse makes significantly less than you, you're going to end up giving quite a bit of your disposable income to them. It's not like you can say "let's go on vacation this month honey, oh, you cannot afford it? Okay, I'll send you a postcard!". So all of a sudden a lot of things cost you double what they did before. I don't know if it's douchey to try to want to avoid that. 

 

It's kinda douchey... Especially if you're planning to have a family someday, and one person might have a significant income reduction then. I'm totally cool with being the main breadwinner and paying for all four of us to go on vacation! Love > money  . 

[ralk]

It's kinda douchey... Especially if you're planning to have a family someday, and one person might have a significant income reduction then. I'm totally cool with being the main breadwinner and paying for all four of us to go on vacation! Love > money  . 

 

I can't even think of it as "I'm paying for all of us to go on vacation". I'll probably end up making more than my SO, and technically it's my name on the cheque that pays for the vacation, but it's a life we're building together that'll make those cheques possible. As long as we're still in it together, as far as I'm concerned, the money's in it together too.

[MathToMed]

Personally, I'd prefer my/my SO's paycheques had both our names on them to avoid this false sense of worth attributed to wealth and who brings home the money, etc.

[rmorelan]

You're probably right, but the whole attitude makes me want to vomit. I'd almost have less of a problem with it if they'd just admit they are doing it for the status, instead of insisting that it's oh so much better and blah blah blah.

 

 

except they cannot admit it for status - actually stating it is for those reasons destroys the illusion, exposes a classism that the people involved don't really want to advertise, and indirectly says that all of their clients are also idiots. Not exactly the best way to make friends. 

 

this is all just a pumped up version of wearing a good suit to a good interview. You are projecting an image as a part of your advertising. This guy is projecting an image for advertising as well - except in his world you don't ever get to stop doing it

 

this all being said it is also completely possible that they are doing it as well because they think the education is superior (that is the other reason after all). I just really, really doubt that is the only thing going on. If for no other reason than 15K spent on tutors and supplemental educational opportunities on top of a public education would probably vastly exceed what ever is possible inside the private school (just think about that - you could get a university level tutor for 20-25 an hour without too much effort, so we are talking here about 600-750 hours a year assuming no discount for volume - or roughly 2-3 hours a day of one on one extra teaching for most of the year, 6 days a week. 

[NLengr]

Honestly, even though my spouse stays at home to take care of our child, it's just as hard, if not harder than my job, at least part of the time. Not to mention, a significant portion of my spouses time/energy is devoted to supporting me (cooking, cleaning, paperwork) so that I can study/work and pass my exam. A relationship is a two way street. The amount of money one person makes is but a small part of it.

 

I agree with people above. I'd hate to be in a relationship with someone who would specify the amount I need to make. You know they're at a high risk of constantly holding it over you and thinking it makes them more important than you (aka being a douche).

[rmorelan]

I can't even think of it as "I'm paying for all of us to go on vacation". I'll probably end up making more than my SO, and technically it's my name on the cheque that pays for the vacation, but it's a life we're building together that'll make those cheques possible. As long as we're still in it together, as far as I'm concerned, the money's in it together too.

 

well plus....I mean wouldn't YOU enjoy the vacation more if your best friend was going with you?

 

We are beginning to waver over the line of what money is actually for Either you enjoy providing good experiences etc for your family and friends, or you personally enjoy spending it on things that make you happy (like having your best friend who is supposed to be your spouse going with you on an adventure and having a blast together). Either way.........

[makingfetchhappen]

Oh wow look at all the trouble I got myself into!

 

I think I might have not explained myself properly. Either that or I am just a jerk.I had a terrible headache all day and been in a bad mood. Very unusual for me.

[thsc]

lol, don't sweat it. This forum can be oddly idealistic about marriage. It's a funny quirk of the demographic.

I once got hate mail here for weeks on end for stating that I thought pre-nups were a good idea.

Lol I can concur with you on the pre-nup idea....

[ralk]

lol, don't sweat it. This forum can be oddly idealistic about marriage. It's a funny quirk of the demographic.

I once got hate mail here for weeks on end for stating that I thought pre-nups were a good idea.

Really? I'm pretty idealistic about marriage, but I still want a pre-nup. That's just being practical. Hope (and strive) for the best but prepare for the worst and all that.

[makingfetchhappen]

lol, don't sweat it. This forum can be oddly idealistic about marriage. It's a funny quirk of the demographic.

I once got hate mail here for weeks on end for stating that I thought pre-nups were a good idea.

Yes and there is also a difference between dating and marriage. I think that before you get into a relationship with a person is when you would be thinking about what you expect. 

 

I'm actually on the other end of the spectrum in that my boyfriend makes a lot more than I do. If he wants to do something fancy, guess who is paying? I wouldn't have faulted him if he had decided that he didn't want to do that when we first got to know each other. If he made as much as a doctor, maybe it wouldn't matter, but at the end of the day his lifestyle is noticeably more modest than it would be if I made a similar salary to his.

 

And then there are people who have no disposable income and those who have very little. Going back to the vacation example, I know social media convinces us otherwise, but there are plenty of people who cannot afford to travel at all. Nothing wrong with that if you are happy and in love. But you might not be willing to make that potential sacrifice when you still barely know the person that you are dating. 

 

I do think that couples should share their money equally when they are married. Also, decisions are to be made about what you both want and you will agree to things together. I agree with NLengr above about both spouses contributions being equally valued. I think that the default divorce laws reflect this too by splitting the property accumulated during the marriage equally.

 

Where I run into trouble with divorce law is when you have a really messy divorce where one person has really wronged the other. If I were the higher income earner, and my spouse cheated on me or something like that, I'd be pretty bitter about him getting half. 

[rmorelan]

Especially for people in med and dent. The law isn't equipped to deal fairly with every situation, and dental and med students have a unique situation of many years of no income, very high debt, and very high future income with no pensions. The law gets a little wonky in these cases because it deals with a snap-shot of the present, whereas financially medical careers are a long game.

Quite true

[older]

I would agree it isn't the private school that makes things work specifically - it is the parents being very clear that education is a priority.

 

Private schools are part education and part of getting into a particular social circle. Both would help you in specific ways going ahead but it is important not to mix the two

 

This stock broker is probably in part in a bind - he needs to maintain a certain social status in order to network and appear to be successful - and you need look successful to be successful in sales. It is a circle he cannot easily escape from. His clients go to private schools, drive nice cars, live in nice areas etc so he has to do the same thing. You would you give your money to some that looks like they don't know what to do with it? You going to get invited to the right functions wearing your 300 dollar Moore's suit pulling up in your 9 year old Honda accord?

.

 

 

Except that you don't need to... In Canada they will get a good education at pretty much any public school. Especially if they have parents who make it clear that education is important.

 

Are you kidding? Good education in Canadian public schools?! Especially in Ontario?

 

The quality of education here makes you think that undergrad requirement for med schools is really necessary... unlike in Europe when they can go to med school straight from secondary school,  having appropriate science knowledge and general knowledge confirmed by challenging standardized exams.

 

Nothing like that here - except of schools with IB program.  The average level of knowledge of HS graduate in Canada  is horrible.

 

Having said that, education in private schools, although generally better, is often not up to par and not worth the money. It is true that people send their kids there for prestige, and for environment. Yet significantly increasing number of middle-class parents send their kids to private school with one purpose - simply to get them better education than what they would get in public schools. Immigrants, especially those from Europe and Asia, see it  clearly  - they can compare with educational standards in their home countries. While "prestigious" private schools downtown Toronto are filled by kids of the establishment, some excellent suburban ones are full of Chinese, Korean, Indian, Croatian, Polish etc kids. In addition to the kids of doctors, lawyers and stockbrockers. 

 

On  MD's  income, why wouldn't I want my kid to go to private school? 15-20k/year is not outrageous expense.

[makingfetchhappen]

Are you kidding? Good education in Canadian public schools?! Especially in Ontario?

 

The quality of education here makes you think that undergrad requirement for med schools is really necessary... unlike in Europe when they can go to med school straight from secondary school,  having appropriate science knowledge and general knowledge confirmed by challenging standardized exams.

 

Nothing like that here - except of schools with IB program.  The average level of knowledge of HS graduate in Canada  is horrible.

 

Having said that, education in private schools, although generally better, is often not up to par and not worth the money. It is true that people send their kids there for prestige, and for environment. Yet significantly increasing number of middle-class parents send their kids to private school with one purpose - simply to get them better education than what they would get in public schools. Immigrants, especially those from Europe and Asia, see it  clearly  - they can compare with educational standards in their home countries. While "prestigious" private schools downtown Toronto are filled by kids of the establishment, some excellent suburban ones are full of Chinese, Korean, Indian, Croatian, Polish etc kids. In addition to the kids of doctors, lawyers and stockbrockers. 

 

On  MD's  income, why wouldn't I want my kid to go to private school? 15-20k/year is not outrageous expense.

Did you go to public school in Ontario? I did, and I found first year uni to be a repeat of last year high school bio, chem, physics, and math. Some of the private school kids I met there were actually under prepared.

[NLengr]

Are you kidding? Good education in Canadian public schools?! Especially in Ontario?

 

The quality of education here makes you think that undergrad requirement for med schools is really necessary... unlike in Europe when they can go to med school straight from secondary school,  having appropriate science knowledge and general knowledge confirmed by challenging standardized exams.

 

Nothing like that here - except of schools with IB program.  The average level of knowledge of HS graduate in Canada  is horrible.

 

Having said that, education in private schools, although generally better, is often not up to par and not worth the money. It is true that people send their kids there for prestige, and for environment. Yet significantly increasing number of middle-class parents send their kids to private school with one purpose - simply to get them better education than what they would get in public schools. Immigrants, especially those from Europe and Asia, see it  clearly  - they can compare with educational standards in their home countries. While "prestigious" private schools downtown Toronto are filled by kids of the establishment, some excellent suburban ones are full of Chinese, Korean, Indian, Croatian, Polish etc kids. In addition to the kids of doctors, lawyers and stockbrockers. 

 

On  MD's  income, why wouldn't I want my kid to go to private school? 15-20k/year is not outrageous expense.

You should read the stars can article I posted. Success of kids in private school is due to socioeconomic factors, not because they go to private school. Put those kids in public school and they are still set up to succeed. That also doesn't cover the fact that some private schools only admit kids likely to succeed (admissions exams etc). The private school kids do better because they are the kids more likely to succeed from the start, not because they are in private schools.

 

European med school and North american med school are set up completely differently (6 vs 4 years for one thing) so you can't really use direct entry in Europe as evidence of superior secondary education.

[uwopremed]

Are you kidding? Good education in Canadian public schools?! Especially in Ontario?

 

The quality of education here makes you think that undergrad requirement for med schools is really necessary... unlike in Europe when they can go to med school straight from secondary school,  having appropriate science knowledge and general knowledge confirmed by challenging standardized exams.

 

Nothing like that here - except of schools with IB program.  The average level of knowledge of HS graduate in Canada  is horrible.

 

Having said that, education in private schools, although generally better, is often not up to par and not worth the money. It is true that people send their kids there for prestige, and for environment. Yet significantly increasing number of middle-class parents send their kids to private school with one purpose - simply to get them better education than what they would get in public schools. Immigrants, especially those from Europe and Asia, see it  clearly  - they can compare with educational standards in their home countries. While "prestigious" private schools downtown Toronto are filled by kids of the establishment, some excellent suburban ones are full of Chinese, Korean, Indian, Croatian, Polish etc kids. In addition to the kids of doctors, lawyers and stockbrockers. 

 

On  MD's  income, why wouldn't I want my kid to go to private school? 15-20k/year is not outrageous expense.

 

While grade inflation is a huge issue in Ontario schools - the level of education available is actually pretty fantastic.  There are no large private high schools in London, ON (the few that exist cater mostly to international kids from China/Korea).  Yet there are tons of very successful kids from London (whose parents are usually professors or MDs or dentists or lawyers).  The MDs, Laywers, Dentists all send their kids to local high schools that are public (though many do send their kids to private school - Matthews Hall - up till grade 8).

 

The public high school I went to had incredible resources that would compare favourably with the best private schools - and the success of their students is the proof (look up London Central).  But even the average high schools in London still offer fantastic programs.  The HSs that do the best are those that are in the wealthier areas.  Socioeconomic status is the difference - not the quality of the schools.  You really need to get you head out of your arse with asinine snobby statements like yours.

[ralk]

You should read the stars can article I posted. Success of kids in private school is due to socioeconomic factors, not because they go to private school. Put those kids in public school and they are still set up to succeed. That also doesn't cover the fact that some private schools only admit kids likely to succeed (admissions exams etc). The private school kids do better because they are the kids more likely to succeed from the start, not because they are in private schools.

 

European med school and North american med school are set up completely differently (6 vs 4 years for one thing) so you can't really use direct entry in Europe as evidence of superior secondary education.

 

Exactly - it's one thing to be willing to spend several thousands of dollars a year on your kids' education, but it's entirely another to get zero return on that investment. There's a lot of good educational opportunities you can pay for outside of school for that kind of money. I'd rather spend that money on quality summers camps (when kids can fall behind in educational attainment without the regular reinforcement provided in school) or on extra-curricular activities than on a private school that doesn't offer much in the way in better outcomes.

[rmorelan]

That's fine if that's your priority.

But that is a hefty percentage of after tax income for a doctor if they have multiple kids in private school

 

Each child would be about 10% of your after tax income for instance (350K specialist etc). That is assuming you take all the earnings as income (which would be dumb really but still). If you have as in this example 4 kids.......

 

That is not small change is the point

[rmorelan]

Exactly.

Add to that the lost compounding interest over decades if that same sum of money were invested, it adds up to A LOT.

 

say one kid every 2 years, start paying school at grade 6 private until end of age 17, 20K per year indexed to go up 2% for inflation each year, then by the time the last child finishes after inflation returns of only 6% gives you:

 

2.2 million dollars

 

that is 1.6 million in today's money all assuming that 2% inflation. If inflation is more then tuition would be higher (and thus the amount in comparison lost to savings) as would returns to it actually works out pretty even.

 

 

[medici]

say one kid every 2 years, start paying school at grade 6 private until end of age 17, 20K per year indexed to go up 2% for inflation each year, then by the time the last child finishes after inflation returns of only 6% gives you:

 

2.2 million dollars

 

that is 1.6 million in today's money all assuming that 2% inflation. If inflation is more then tuition would be higher (and thus the amount in comparison lost to savings) as would returns to it actually works out pretty even.

I like math so I hope you don't find this request annoying. Can you break that down for me? I don't understand how you got 1.6 million or 2.2 million.

[Sigmund Freud]

lol, don't sweat it. This forum can be oddly idealistic about marriage. It's a funny quirk of the demographic.

I once got hate mail here for weeks on end for stating that I thought pre-nups were a good idea.

Very much so, imo. I like how my comment about not having a wife was taken as me growing old alone... Not to be 'that guy', but there are many alternative lifestyles out there!

[rmorelan]

I like math so I hope you don't find this request annoying. Can you break that down for me? I don't understand how you got 1.6 million or 2.2 million.

 

well I made a whole bunch of assumptions up there which I hope I was open about

 

All dollar values below are in 1000s so the starting cost for school is 20K. Cost goes up each year by inflation which is estimate to be a constant 2% just to simplify. Each kid has to be given 12 years of private schooling, staggered by 2 years for each kid (they are all born 2 years a part).

 

Instead of spending it on their private schooling if it was invested at a low ball stock market long term return level of 6% after inflation (or 8% total) that money would grow due to compound returns. I computed how much it would grow yearly over the 23 years the schooling would be going on (from the start of the first born to the grad of the last). The running total includes the compound return and the cumulative tuition amounts.

 

Year Age of oldest child Kid 1     Kid 2    Kid 3 Kid 4 Total for year Running total Inflation

1      6                             20.00                                     20.00 

2      7                            20.40                                      20.40           20.40 1.02

3      8                            20.81     20.81                        41.62           86.98 1.04

4      9                            21.22     21.22                        42.45          136.38 1.06

5      10                            21.65   21.65   21.65            64.95          212.24 1.08

6      11                            22.08   22.08   22.08            66.24          295.46 1.10

7      12                            22.52   22.52   22.52 22.52 90.09           409.19 1.13

8      13                            22.97   22.97   22.97 22.97 91.89           533.82 1.15

9      14                            23.43   23.43   23.43 23.43 93.73           670.26 1.17

10      15                          23.90   23.90   23.90 23.90 95.61           819.49 1.20

11      16                          24.38   24.38   24.38 24.38 97.52           982.57 1.22

12      17                          24.87   24.87   24.87 24.87 99.47           1160.64 1.24 (one million dollars!)

13      18                                      25.36   25.36 25.36 76.09           1329.59 1.27

14      19                                      25.87   25.87   25.87 77.62         1513.57 1.29

15      20                                                  26.39   26.39 52.78         1687.44 1.32

16      21                                                  26.92   26.92 53.83         1876.27 1.35

17      22                                                              27.46 27.46         2053.83 1.37

18      23                                                             28.00  28.00         2246.14 1.40

 

 

 

Due to inflation of course money is worth less tomorrow than today (normally). Just because prices rise you cannot buy as much 10 years from now with say 10 dollars as you could right now. The question is how much will inflation be - it goes all over the place and as really being low lately (hence the interest rate is also low in part), but say every year inflation would be 2%. So to buy next year what I bought this year I need a bit more money - 1.00 x 1.02 = 1.02 dollars to be exact. The next year it would go up again but this time 1.02*1.02= 1.0404 etc. In 23 years at 2% you would need 1.00x1.02^23 = 1.4 x more money to buy the exactly the same thing. That allows me to convert the money from 23 years in the future to something you can directly understand today (2.2million/1.4 is about 1.6 million).

 

Extra wrinkle for a doctor - in order to get 20K after tax to pay for the school you have to take out 40K approx from your corporation and give roughly half of it first to the government. If instead we left the money in the corp, pay the business tax, and then let the left overs rise the total amount in the 23 years would be roughly 1.8 more than the 2.2 million which puts us around 4million. That money could be ultimately given to your children as dividends if you like.

 

So you can play games with this sort of stuff - private schooling for 12 years OR fully (I mean fully) funded university education AND a paid off house worth roughly 500K given to them when the graduate (or ok 500K equity in a house as an alternative). Dealers choice.

[thsc]

Very much so, imo. I like how my comment about not having a wife was taken as me growing old alone... Not to be 'that guy', but there are many alternative lifestyles out there!

OMG i feel exactly the same way. No one understands when I talk about not getting married. 

[older]

Did you go to public school in Ontario? I did, and I found first year uni to be a repeat of last year high school bio, chem, physics, and math. Some of the private school kids I met there were actually under prepared.

 

Doesn't this tell you something? Universities have to teach material from last year of school  because most of the kids did not master it at school, public or private. Repeat for you, a new thing for many others. Lots of under-prepared kids go to university and then drop out. Not to mention that elsewhere in the world this material is taught in grade 9 or 10.

 

You are right, some private schools are not strong in academics, and some public schools are relatively good.That doesn't change my point -  I commented on average level of secondary education in Ontario, as well as on wide inconsistencies  in programs, teaching and assessment. it is below standards of developed countries. Only IB program can be compared to world standards, and  it is way more advanced than Ontario curriculum.