Mcmaster Or University Of Ottawa Md Program

[hamlet]

Hi everyone,

 

I was wondering if anyone could give their opinions about these programs in comparison to each other? I don't have preference over location. I am also not very sure about specialities yet, but I am interested in pubilc health and opthamology. I'm sure this is subject to change once I enter medical school though.

 

Thank you!

[Panacea]

Hi everyone,

 

I was wondering if anyone could give their opinions about these programs in comparison to each other? I don't have preference over location. I am also not very sure about specialities yet, but I am interested in pubilc health and opthamology. I'm sure this is subject to change once I enter medical school though.

 

Thank you!

I suppose it really depends on your style of learning. However, both schools have very laxed schedules. Mac has minimal lec hours and Ottawa pretty much has most afternoons off, which is awesome. A couple of surgeons that I know well have told me that the students that they've come across from Ottawa Med are generally pretty good. I feel like with Mac, they leave so much of the learning to the student, it varies a lot between students in a given class. I'd personally pick Ottawa. 

[RiceWine]

feel like with mac (3 year school), you need to know what you want from the get-go. you may have less time to decide about specialty choices.

[jmatt1122]

I'll preface by saying I haven't done extensive research into either schools (didn't interview at either of them), but it'd be Ottawa hands down for me. More time to explore specialties, summers off to do research/electives/travel. I also come from a non-health background, so more of a barrier to overcome at Mac in terms of self-directing my learning. I'm also not sure I have the work ethic to be successful at mac. The reputation their graduates have worries me a bit (this is based on hearsay... I'm making no definitive claims about the quality of their graduates). My perception is that at Mac it's possible to do very well, but it's also possible to slack off and get through with a lot of gaps in your learning, which shows on electives and in residency. Also I think Ottawa is a more appealing place to live than Hamilton.

 

Just my $0.02. Congratulations on being in the fortunate position of having to choose between two amazing schools. Best of luck!

[Heisencat]

I would pick Ottawa over Mac, for pretty much the same reasons mentioned by jmatt and others above. Another thing that I found really appealing about Ottawa is the opportunity to continue learning French. They have free language lessons for all med students, and you can do observerships and electives in their Francophone hospital, which I think would be a super cool and unique experience. If you have an advanced level of French, it would be fun to even sit in on a medical lesson in French. I was also concerned about the set up of anatomy at Mac - from reading on forums and speaking to medical students on my interview day, it seems like they only have anatomy a few times a month and are never tested on it, so if you're interested in a surgical specialty, you'd have to do a lot of learning on your own again. In the end, it comes down to your own preferences regarding program length, teaching style, and location. 

[ploughboy]

 

I am also not very sure about specialities yet, but I am interested in pubilc health and opthamology. I'm sure this is subject to change once I enter medical school though.

 

Three words: Ottawa Eye Institute.

[thatonekid]

Three words: Ottawa Eye Institute.

 

Yep, amazing and innovative stuff happening in Ottawa for ophthalmology.

[Organomegaly]

I'll be going to McMaster in the fall and I've also had to consider many of the points you see in this thread 

 

1. Less time to explore specialties - it is a bit of a fast-track, but Mac offers early clinical exposure through "horizontal electives". You set these up individually with a specialist you're interesting in working under and some people I've spoken to have done hundreds of hours of these electives in the first block of pre-clerkship (MF1). These opportunities also tend to be hands-on; I've heard of several students suturing in the ER, assisting with delivering a baby, i.e. it's not just observation - they let you do more if you gain their trust. You might have a harder time doing these things at more didactic schools, but I heard they're very helpful for gathering thoughts on your specialty. As well, if you have a specialty in mind already, McMaster becomes an even greater choice since you'll spend less time studying texts about things you care less about in preclerkship and more time engaging with that speciality clinically through horizontal electives.

 

2. Less standardization between learners - this is definitely an aspect of being at McMaster, but there are measures in place to help keep people on track. You take an exam called the PPI (Personal Progress Index) every 3 months, basically 180 MCQs to gauge how you're doing relative to everyone in the class. It has predictive validity for the LMCC and USMLE step 1, and people falling a certain number of standard deviations below are asked about their progress, offered support, etc.

 

3. Reputation - McMaster's Faculty of Health Sciences has a great reputation  - it's one of the birthplaces of evidence-based medicine and problem-based learning and Hamilton Health Sciences is one of the largest research networks in Canada. For health/medicine, McMaster is consistently ranked among the top 3/4 in Canada (usually alongside U of T/McGill/UBC) on various scales (not that these matter for the student experience). In terms of its grads, I personally haven't heard these rumours though I've never asked program directors about them. I spent some time looking at CARMS data to answer this:

 

% of Candidates getting their first choice ranked speciality: 

http://www.carms.ca/assets/upload/Match%20reports/2014%20R-1%20match/EN/Table%2016%20-%20Match%20Results%20-%20by%20School%20of%20Graduation%20and%20Discipline%20Choice%20Rank_English.pdf

 

The types of disciplines students from various schools pick:

http://www.carms.ca/assets/upload/Match%20reports/2014%20R-1%20match/EN/Table%2034%20-%20First%20Choice%20Discipline%20of%20Active%20CMGs%20by%20Discipline%20and%20School%20of%20Graduation_English.pdf

 

The point is that there are scant differences between all Ontario schools, not just McMaster and Ottawa, and it's possible to get whatever specialty you want from any Canadian UGME program. Just find the right one for you! If you think you'll enjoy the greater personal responsibility at McMaster, and the more fast-paced program, then you'll like it. If you think you're at risk of falling behind or losing motivation and ending up with a speciality you didn't truly want or something like that, then for sure go to Ottawa. It's a more traditional program and will give you better structure. Personally, I learn better when there is a bit more chaos. I like haphazard schedules where it's never the same each week. It keeps me excited and I tend towards absorbing as much information as I can but while I'm still moving, out of my seat, etc. Mac does have 6 lectures a week (through 3 mornings of lectures), and the guidance of a physician for tutorial progress, so it isn't entirely personal, but for sure a lot if will be based on what I understand and it's important to be comfortable with that going into this program. I think though that if you reap the benefits of the more open schedule, you can really excel beyond what a typical program would let you do, but if not , like others have mentioned, you might up on the wrong side of the fence as well. I think at this stage in our education we're all capable of keeping ourselves on track. 

[Arttomed]

If I had your opportunity I would choose McMaster over Ottawa for 2 reasons:

 

1- You will graduate a year earlier meaning you will save approximately 200k. Other than that you save your time which is a huge plus imho. 

2- McMaster has a better reputation compared to Ottawa. I think last year McMaster ranked 4 among Canadian Med schools. 

 

I asked a few of my friends who attend McMaster regarding choosing the residency program and they seemed to have no problem. They told me Mac gives you enough opportunity to explore different residencies before choosing the speciality that you are interested.

 

P.S. I am waitlisted at Ottawa so maybe I am a bit biased but I tried my very best to give you my honest opinion. 

[bbsare]

If I had your opportunity I would choose McMaster over Ottawa for 2 reasons:

 

1- You will graduate a year earlier meaning you will save approximately 200k. Other than that you save your time which is a huge plus imho. 

2- McMaster has a better reputation compared to Ottawa. I think last year McMaster ranked 4 among Canadian Med schools. 

 

I asked a few of my friends who attend McMaster regarding choosing the residency program and they seemed to have no problem. They told me Mac gives you enough opportunity to explore different residencies before choosing the speciality that you are interested.

 

P.S. I am waitlisted at Ottawa so maybe I am a bit biased but I tried my very best to give you my honest opinion. 

 

 

Can I ask how she'll be saving $200 000 by graduating a year earlier?

[amichel]

Can I ask how she'll be saving $200 000 by graduating a year earlier?

I think they mean to with the extra year of income.

[Arttomed]

I think they mean to with the extra year of income.

Yeah that's what I meant 

[Organomegaly]

More on the topic, if you feel that you're not ready to select a residency by the end of 3 years, you're able to take an enrichment 4th year to do 20 more weeks of electives as well as research - without paying another year of tuition. There are similar options for those few unlucky people who go unmatched.  

[thsc]

For some, I think giving up 2 summers can be a big deal (it would for me at least). We're still quite young so giving up that time/freedom in order to finish a year early is not a clear-cut choice depending on their priorities. Personally, I wouldn't make the decision based on the fact that Mac finishes 1 year earlier. 

[katakari]

For some, I think giving up 2 summers can be a big deal (it would for me at least). We're still quite young so giving up that time/freedom in order to finish a year early is not a clear-cut choice depending on their priorities. Personally, I wouldn't make the decision based on the fact that Mac finishes 1 year earlier. 

 

2 summers vs 1 year of your life. Not to mention the 5 or so long weekends I've had (4+ days).

 

For my opinion see my post here: http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/84547-choosing-a-school/?p=943739

[thsc]

2 summers vs 1 year of your life. Not to mention the 5 or so long weekends I've had (4+ days).

 

For my opinion see my post here: http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/84547-choosing-a-school/?p=943739

Great post! 

 

The problem with being analytical about time off is that 2 summers vs. 1 year as simply not equivalent. It's not like you can take the 1 year after graduation off to do whatever you want. I personally would value the 2 summers much more since it will allow time to travel for extended periods of time rather than graduating 1 year early to do a job that I'd be doing for the the next 30-35 years anyways. Just my personal preference though. 

[ShadowStar]

Great post! 

 

The problem with being analytical about time off is that 2 summers vs. 1 year as simply not equivalent. It's not like you can take the 1 year after graduation off to do whatever you want. I personally would value the 2 summers much more since it will allow time to travel for extended periods of time rather than graduating 1 year early to do a job that I'd be doing for the the next 30-35 years anyways. Just my personal preference though. 

 

Guess it also depends on what kind of person you are or if you're able to travel during that time. I have buddies at Mac who are content with just the short breaks they have throughout the year. Perhaps they know that they won't be travelling or doing something that requires them to be out of school during the summers (because it's only going to be two or three summers anyway). But if you're the type of person who wants that kind of time, go for the 4 year program. I don't think any of us can tell you what is best for us because none of us are you. In the end, it's what you and your family think would be best for you. Then just roll with it

[katakari]

Great post! 

 

The problem with being analytical about time off is that 2 summers vs. 1 year as simply not equivalent. It's not like you can take the 1 year after graduation off to do whatever you want. I personally would value the 2 summers much more since it will allow time to travel for extended periods of time rather than graduating 1 year early to do a job that I'd be doing for the the next 30-35 years anyways. Just my personal preference though. 

 

Fair enough. I'm the type of person who prefers integrated breaks as I'd feel pretty guilty taking a break over summer, but ymmv.

[anxious_101]

Mac had one of the worst carms match this year in Ontario. I personally know one of the unmatched students and they felt that the biggest issue was not enough time to explore exactly what you want in terms of residency and career path. They applied to too many fields with broad electives that did not show focus. It might seem like saving one year versus a traditional 4-year program is great at face value, but if this ultimately means you end up choosing a field without the proper exposure you get in a 4-year curriculum then you do yourself and that field a disservice. I think this is something that should be considered much more seriously vs the argument about making an extra year of salary down the road in a 3 year program.

[Organomegaly]

 

 

.

[sleeping_sickness]

Yeah that's what I meant 

Over the course of a career as a physician this is peanuts and certainly not a reason to choose mac over ottawa. 

[Organomegaly]

Mac had one of the worst carms match this year in Ontario. I personally know one of the unmatched students and they felt that the biggest issue was not enough time to explore exactly what you want in terms of residency and career path. They applied to too many fields with broad electives that did not show focus. It might seem like saving one year versus a traditional 4-year program is great at face value, but if this ultimately means you end up choosing a field without the proper exposure you get in a 4-year curriculum then you do yourself and that field a disservice. I think this is something that should be considered much more seriously vs the argument about making an extra year of salary down the road in a 3 year program.

 

Those are definitely points to keep in mind. But sorry, how can you compare Mac to the rest of the Ontario schools without any 2015 carms stats? It's not released yet and knowing an unmatched resident does not tell you anything. Every school has unmatched residents. Them being unmatched doesn't mean there is a fundamental fault in the program as for over a decade now Mac has produced match results that are more or less the same to other Ontario schools

[bearded frog]

How many programs and what programs did they apply to?

[Rorzo]

Mac had one of the worst carms match this year in Ontario. I personally know one of the unmatched students and they felt that the biggest issue was not enough time to explore exactly what you want in terms of residency and career path. They applied to too many fields with broad electives that did not show focus. It might seem like saving one year versus a traditional 4-year program is great at face value, but if this ultimately means you end up choosing a field without the proper exposure you get in a 4-year curriculum then you do yourself and that field a disservice. I think this is something that should be considered much more seriously vs the argument about making an extra year of salary down the road in a 3 year program.

 

I'll declare my bias as a McMaster med student, but you can't determine how you as an individual will match based off of a school's results for one year. There's a video about unmatched students this year that carms put out, and in the vast majority of cases the issues were with things that the students themselves did - errors in documentation, applying to less than 3 programs or applying haphazardly to a whole bunch of disciplines etc. Mac has help available for clerks to prepare for carms that covers all of this, and there were still students who chose not to take advantage of the available resources and it ended up negatively affecting them. McMaster places the onus on the student in a lot of cases, and if you're doing horizontal electives in preclerkship, attending talks and generally taking advantage of the advantages of being a medical student, there is ample time to explore specialties in 3 years and make a proper carms application.

 

And even if you don't buy all that, would last year's match results indicate that UofT should be avoided because its curriculum doesn't prepare students?

 

http://www.carms.ca/assets/upload/Match%20reports/2014%20R-1%20match/EN/Table%202%20-%20Summary%20of%20Match%20Results%20by%20School%20of%20Graduation_English.pdf

 

Mac's had great carms years and not so great ones, if the learning style would suit you better than your other options, don't let one year's variation change your choice.

[thestar10]

Those are definitely points to keep in mind. But sorry, how can you compare Mac to the rest of the Ontario schools without any 2015 carms stats? It's not released yet and knowing an unmatched resident does not tell you anything. Every school has unmatched residents. Them being unmatched doesn't mean there is a fundamental fault in the program as for over a decade now Mac has produced match results that are more or less the same to other Ontario schools

They aren't officially posted but the numbers are floating around the schools. I have them in a text somewhere. Mac had a very bad year this year (Indeed the worst in ontario)

 

One thing I will say having been in clerkship, is that there are a number of docs who just talk **** about Mac. While our  absolute match numbers are in line with other schools, I do think that there is a Mac "stigma" that may cause people not a preference higher up. 

 

We also have less CV building time (aka research) 

 

While these are generalizations as a whole, rember that matching is a personal activity. I you dont take it seriously or are unreasonable you are gonna have a rough time regardless of schools.