LittleDaisy Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, hero147 said: More likely due to credentialism and a declining job market. As more and more people opt for the 5 year GIm program, the people who do the 4 year program may find it harder to obtain positions in mid to large-sized cities. True in Quebec we only have 5 year GIM program . The rest of Canada have 4 year GIM program for people who want to work in community or who didn't match in the first round. General internists are not subspecialist per say but the amount of knowledge and updates in medicine ; being the MRP makes you the most liable physician as you are required to use your clinical acumen and overlook the global picture of a patient; it all justifies why 5 year training . I don't know why would people want to do endo nor allergy you undergo 5 years of intensive training to make less than a GP and end up seeing low acuity outpatients not compliant to their insulin /antihyperglycemics or nasal sprays . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMislove Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Allergists and endo make Less than gps? Fack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, IMislove said: Allergists and endo make Less than gps? Fack. Yeah. You could do some research around; do not use CMA profiles as they show average of all internists : i.e cardio /GI/nephro/icu raise the overall earnings . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMislove Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 11 hours ago, LittleDaisy said: Yeah. You could do some research around; do not use CMA profiles as they show average of all internists : i.e cardio /GI/nephro/icu raise the overall earnings . I mean maybe that explains why my allergist works 6 days a week once a month, but like there is such a shortage of them outside the GTA, I’m just surprised. Waitlist are long for both. Very unfortunate :(. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 11 hours ago, IMislove said: Allergists and endo make Less than gps? Fack. The endos in my jurisdiction definitely do not make less than GPs. Most of them are doing niche focus areas on top of regular work (weight loss, diabetes, hormonal, pcos etc etc) and all make quite a bit of money. They work damn hard, but they make very good money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aconitase Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnGrisham said: The endos in my jurisdiction definitely do not make less than GPs. Most of them are doing niche focus areas on top of regular work (weight loss, diabetes, hormonal, pcos etc etc) and all make quite a bit of money. They work damn hard, but they make very good money. Exactly. In a busy community they are all well over 500k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#YOLO Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 allergists make bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 22 hours ago, Aconitase said: GIM used to be 4. Why does it now need to be 5? I think part of it also has to do with general internists wanting to be seen as a specialty rather than a default. Truthfully, I think salary should be considered but shouldn't be too important of a factor. Ultimately, these billing codes and technologies can change at any time, and what is a high paying specialty in one jurisdiction is not high paying in another and all of this can change in a second's notice. Our careers are going to be very long as well, so the truth is that you just can't predict these things with too much regularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted March 10, 2018 Report Share Posted March 10, 2018 On 09/03/2018 at 9:28 AM, JohnGrisham said: The endos in my jurisdiction definitely do not make less than GPs. Most of them are doing niche focus areas on top of regular work (weight loss, diabetes, hormonal, pcos etc etc) and all make quite a bit of money. They work damn hard, but they make very good money. Most of the endos/ allergists that I talked to make around 300 k in academic / community . Once again not everyone is a workaholic. People go into Endo/ allergy for good lifestyle reason ; if you work like crazy you will make more for sure . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aconitase Posted March 10, 2018 Report Share Posted March 10, 2018 23 minutes ago, LittleDaisy said: Most of the endos/ allergists that I talked to make around 300 k in academic / community . Once again not everyone is a workaholic. People go into Endo/ allergy for good lifestyle reason ; if you work like crazy you will make more for sure . That seems low. Won’t a GP make more with similar hours ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted March 10, 2018 Report Share Posted March 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Aconitase said: That seems low. Won’t a GP make more with similar hours ? Endo/allergists routinely follow patients for diabetes / query allergies. The billings go down for routine follow up than new consults. The best way to know is to ask around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aconitase Posted March 10, 2018 Report Share Posted March 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, LittleDaisy said: Endo/allergists routinely follow patients for diabetes / query allergies. The billings go down for routine follow up than new consults. The best way to know is to ask around Don’t they still have the coveted E078 or did they lose it too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#YOLO Posted March 10, 2018 Report Share Posted March 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, Aconitase said: Don’t they still have the coveted E078 or did they lose it too? just become a family doc in a community where u can work hospitalist and emerg, and get a nice gaurenteed hourly wage..making money while sleeping is the best :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 3 hours ago, LittleDaisy said: Most of the endos/ allergists that I talked to make around 300 k in academic / community . Once again not everyone is a workaholic. People go into Endo/ allergy for good lifestyle reason ; if you work like crazy you will make more for sure . Thats my point.. even the ones who are "not workaholics" are making 300k. These threads these last few days have been making it seem like a doc making 200-300k is peanuts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#YOLO Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 when you trying to whip the rarri it is peanuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnGrisham said: Thats my point.. even the ones who are "not workaholics" are making 300k. These threads these last few days have been making it seem like a doc making 200-300k is peanuts.... I am not saying that making 300 K is peanuts. When you take into consideration the new Federal tax law, the fact that you have no retirement funds (unless you invest), the fact when you become sick & disabled, everything falls into place (buy disability insurance asap when you are a medical student), the fact that you have no income if you take weeks of vacation & maternity leave & paternity leave & major sickness, the overhead & amount of taxes & insurances including CMPA that a physician has to pay, 300 K goes away quickly unless you know how to save & use money wisely. For OP, allergists & endocrinologists generally do not work that much (40-50 hours per week) and make around 300 K, but GPs working 9-5 Monday-Fridays make around the same. What I am hinting at is that unless you are really passionate about endocrinology & immunology & allergy, going through 5 years of residency to make the same as GP & seeing low acuity patients as outpatients (majority of practice is outpatient) with occasionally no shows seem a lot of sacrifices to me (it's pure my personal opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DermJuly2018PGY1 Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 36 minutes ago, LittleDaisy said: buy disability insurance asap when you are a medical student I am going to be a resident in a couple of months. I still don't have disability insurance. Is there any advantage having it as a medical student vs buying it once I'm a resident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 32 minutes ago, DermJuly2018PGY1 said: I am going to be a resident in a couple of months. I still don't have disability insurance. Is there any advantage having it as a medical student vs buying it once I'm a resident? Mostly for RBC disability insurance, they do not require medical exam & medial records when you applied as a medical student. I applied as a CC3, and the first 12 months are free, so I only started to pay as a medical resident. The longer time you take to apply for disability insurance further down your career, the most costly & health problems you will have. As a resident, you do have PARO disability insurance , but I would still advise go with OMA & RBC personal disability insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indefatigable Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 14 hours ago, JohnGrisham said: Thats my point.. even the ones who are "not workaholics" are making 300k. These threads these last few days have been making it seem like a doc making 200-300k is peanuts.... I agree with this general statement. A few other points though: i) Gross vs Salary. Even 250-300K gross might only be about the same as 150-75K salaried employee when one considers overhead, benefits like pension.. etc.. that aren't part of gross payment. 150-75K salary doesn't sound nearly as large a number. Many other public sector employees in Ontario attain 150K salary, including senior academics, nurses, senators (lol) .. ii) Cost of living varies widely ~150K salary in Vancouver doesn't mean the same as a rural location. iii) There's a lot of inter-provincial variability - FM ranges from a low of 270K in NS (and similarly in BC) to the high-end of 360K in ON (& AB). Personally, as a latecomer to medicine, I think more about the numbers from a practical point of view, as my career might only be half the length of a younger colleague. In QC, the mode age for starting medicine is probably 19-20 vs mean 25ish for ROC. This kind of relates to the other thread too since in pure financial terms, this mean 5ish additional years of accumulating debt vs earning money as staff - which really does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aconitase Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 5 hours ago, JohnGrisham said: Thats my point.. even the ones who are "not workaholics" are making 300k. These threads these last few days have been making it seem like a doc making 200-300k is peanuts.... While not peanuts making 200k a year without any benefits, pension, etc isn’t great at all. Rather be a teacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, Aconitase said: While not peanuts making 200k a year without any benefits, pension, etc isn’t great at all. Rather be a teacher Nothings stopping you or anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medigeek Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 13 hours ago, marrakech said: I agree with this general statement. A few other points though: i) Gross vs Salary. Even 250-300K gross might only be about the same as 150-75K salaried employee when one considers overhead, benefits like pension.. etc.. that aren't part of gross payment. 150-75K salary doesn't sound nearly as large a number. Many other public sector employees in Ontario attain 150K salary, including senior academics, nurses, senators (lol) .. ii) Cost of living varies widely ~150K salary in Vancouver doesn't mean the same as a rural location. iii) There's a lot of inter-provincial variability - FM ranges from a low of 270K in NS (and similarly in BC) to the high-end of 360K in ON (& AB). Personally, as a latecomer to medicine, I think more about the numbers from a practical point of view, as my career might only be half the length of a younger colleague. In QC, the mode age for starting medicine is probably 19-20 vs mean 25ish for ROC. This kind of relates to the other thread too since in pure financial terms, this mean 5ish additional years of accumulating debt vs earning money as staff - which really does make a difference. That's why you have family members as "employees" who you then pay to bypass taxes. The new laws do permit that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medigeek Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 11 hours ago, Aconitase said: While not peanuts making 200k a year without any benefits, pension, etc isn’t great at all. Rather be a teacher Then work harder for a while and make 400 or 600. Go do a few weeks a year in Nunavut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indefatigable Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 1 hour ago, medigeek said: That's why you have family members as "employees" who you then pay to bypass taxes. The new laws do permit that... I'm sure that could potentially help a lot of physicians - but wouldn't help me personally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted March 11, 2018 Report Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 hours ago, medigeek said: That's why you have family members as "employees" who you then pay to bypass taxes. The new laws do permit that... They haven't published anything definitive yet but last I heard was to claim that CRA was going to make you work at least 20 hours per week in order to be an employee. And you had to have records (time logs etc.) So it might not be that easy for 90% of MD families. Who knows. They change the proposed rules so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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