Low GPA - Thinking of a Second Undergrad - Need Hard Advice

[MedHopeful2017]

Hello everyone, let me just begin by saying that becoming a doctor has always been a dream of mine. But I have struggled with getting a higher GPA since my first term at University. I do want to stay in Ontario but I do want to ask how realistic my chances are even if I raise my GPA. Just an FYI - my resumes/EC's are very good, above average. Published research papers, Board of Directors for a hospital and another organization. Founder of a charity. Owner of a small business. I'm also running a big COVID-19 related charity. Just got hired for another hospital job today. And I'm also in the field of real estate. The list goes on. My EC's are very diverse and well developed and that's part of the reason why I don't want to give up on my dream of becoming a doctor.

But the issue is my GPA. It is so incredibly low. And that is why I am considering doing another two years of undergrad at another school like Ryerson. My GPA is around a 2.93 (cumulative but a 75.37% average). So my thoughts are to do 6 consecutive semesters where I have volunteers run my charity and I cut down on and almost stop my business. Focus solely on academics and some volunteering.  

 

I originally went to UW and these are my grades:

Fall 2015

Avg: 75.30%, GPA: 3.04, Weight: 5 Courses

Winter 2016

Avg: 77.27%, GPA: 3.20, Weight: 5.5 Courses

Spring 2016

Avg: 81%, GPA: 3.85, Weight: 2 Courses

Fall 2016

Avg: 78.83%, GPA: 3.28, Weight: 6 Courses

Winter 2017

Avg: 78.50%, GPA: 3.23, Weight: 6 Courses

Spring 2017

 

Avg: 58.14%, GPA: 1.39, Weight: 3.5 Courses

Fall 2017 

Avg: 82.20%, GPA: 3.46, Weight: 5 Courses

Winter 2018

Avg: 81.60%, GPA: 3.56, Weight: 5 Courses

Fall 2018

Avg: 68.00%, GPA: 2.36, Weight: 5 Courses

Winter 2019

 

Avg: 68.00%, GPA: 1.43, Weight: 3 Courses

Fall 2019

Avg: 67.33%, GPA: 2.20, Weight: 3 Courses

Winter 2020

Avg: 84.00%, GPA: 3.45, Weight: 2 Courses 

 

Total Average: 75.37% GPA: 2.93 Weight: 52 Courses

 

But that being said, best case scenario (and remember this would be best case scenario), if I took 6 consecutive semesters and somehow managed to get a 4.0 on all courses. my cumulative GPA would be a 3.32.

Do you think it's still a good idea for me to do this? Or should I just kiss my dreams good bye? 

[MedicineLCS]

I would remove your transcripts ASAP. There's no reason we need to see them and you're doxxing yourself, especially since you've posted them to another forum for another field which isn't a great look. 

Calculate your grades using Conversion Table 3 and see where you're at, each school calculates grades slightly differently so you need to use the conversion table for each individual grade:

https://www.ouac.on.ca/guide/omsas-conversion-table/

At a minimum, you'll need 2 great years to be competitive for 2 year schools. Very few schools use cumulative GPA. That being said, most weighting formulas are designed to drop a bad year, not multiple years, so do the conversion and see where you stand. I also see multiple part-time years, which affects your calculation at some schools/eligibility. 

I wouldn't say you should "kiss your dreams good bye" but perhaps consider the time, money, and opportunity cost to continuing down this path. 

[Heurus]

Cut your losses

[MedHopeful2017]

12 minutes ago, MedicineLCS said:

I would remove your transcripts ASAP. There's no reason we need to see them and you're doxxing yourself, especially since you've posted them to another forum for another field which isn't a great look. 

Calculate your grades using Conversion Table 3 and see where you're at, each school calculates grades slightly differently so you need to use the conversion table for each individual grade:

https://www.ouac.on.ca/guide/omsas-conversion-table/

At a minimum, you'll need 2 great years to be competitive for 2 year schools. Very few schools use cumulative GPA. That being said, most weighting formulas are designed to drop a bad year, not multiple years, so do the conversion and see where you stand. I also see multiple part-time years, which affects your calculation at some schools/eligibility. 

I wouldn't say you should "kiss your dreams good bye" but perhaps consider the time, money, and opportunity cost to continuing down this path. 

I removed the tables. And thank you, I will look into this. 

[MedHopeful2017]

I know the additional two years would help with Queens and Western. And I've heard UofT states that you can submit a letter and it's up to the committee to decide if they disregard the first Undergrad and just focus on the second. 

Ottawa looks at the last 3 years. Would 6 consecutive terms be considered 3 years? 

I'm not entirely sure how Mac looks at a second undergrad. 

[rmorelan]

13 minutes ago, MedHopeful2017 said:

I know the additional two years would help with Queens and Western. And I've heard UofT states that you can submit a letter and it's up to the committee to decide if they disregard the first Undergrad and just focus on the second. 

Ottawa looks at the last 3 years. Would 6 consecutive terms be considered 3 years? 

I'm not entirely sure how Mac looks at a second undergrad. 

Hey - you of course really have to think about this - figure out why the first degree didn't work, and how doing a second one might fit into your plans. It isn't easy - it has been done mind you - but it isn't easy. 

Mac just takes everything and combines it.

Western is also being strange with second degrees - mostly with respect to their 60/40 rule. It is as if they are expecting you to immediately be able to advance to more senior level courses. Verify, verify everything with them in advance. 

Ottawa doesn't count summers so they cannot be in a row - I would also reach out to them in advance, I have heard some strange things with second degree programs in terms of them counting or not. You really dont' want to do this until you are 100% the rules all match. 

Queens will count your last two years - but it is a smaller school of course so there are numerical disadvantages to going all in as it were for just one smaller place. 

Also the math person in me is confused - you have one term with an average of 81% but a 3.85 GPA? What grades did you get that year? 

 

 

[MedHopeful2017]

5 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

Hey - you of course really have to think about this - figure out why the first degree didn't work, and how doing a second one might fit into your plans. It isn't easy - it has been done mind you - but it isn't easy. 

Mac just takes everything and combines it.

Western is also being strange with second degrees - mostly with respect to their 60/40 rule. It is as if they are expecting you to immediately be able to advance to more senior level courses. Verify, verify everything with them in advance. 

Ottawa doesn't count summers so they cannot be in a row - I would also reach out to them in advance, I have heard some strange things with second degree programs in terms of them counting or not. You really dont' want to do this until you are 100% the rules all match. 

Queens will count your last two years - but it is a smaller school of course so there are numerical disadvantages to going all in as it were for just one smaller place. 

Also the math person in me is confused - you have one term with an average of 81% but a 3.85 GPA? What grades did you get that year? 

 

 

Sorry - someone had told me to delete my individual grades. I had an A+ received and an 81% (I assumed the A+ doesn't count in the actual average calculation but it did in the GPA)

[MedHopeful2017]

6 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

you of course really have to think about this

Agreed. Money isn't an issue. It's just time. I'm emailing schools and trying to figure out what the best option is. 

I'm also just thinking about doing 8 consecutive terms. 

The first degree's low GPA was a result of school difficulty, mental health and losing motivation. I have the motivation back and I've really been feeling down for the past little while. This is something I wanted in high school but I lost hope after first year. I really let grades get to my head and make me feel like giving up. And I kept a very sour mentality all of undergrad. 

The GPA is my only barrier. My reference letters were written by the CEO of a hospital, federal MP and my research prof. But obviously, that doesn't mean anything with a horrible GPA. 

I'm willing to pay for tutoring. I'm willing to pay a bit of extra rent to go to an easier school like Ryerson. I just need to get my grades up. 

But before I do all this, I just need reassurance that the schools will still accept a second degree. I'm sending emails out to all of them right now.

[rmorelan]

11 minutes ago, MedHopeful2017 said:

Sorry - someone had told me to delete my individual grades. I had an A+ received and an 81% (I assumed the A+ doesn't count in the actual average calculation but it did in the GPA)

No worries I like to check all the math on these things but putting your entire transcript up is probably not a great idea

[rmorelan]

7 minutes ago, MedHopeful2017 said:

Agreed. Money isn't an issue. It's just time. I'm emailing schools and trying to figure out what the best option is. 

I'm also just thinking about doing 8 consecutive terms. 

The first degree's low GPA was a result of school difficulty, mental health and losing motivation. I have the motivation back and I've really been feeling down for the past little while. This is something I wanted in high school but I lost hope after first year. I really let grades get to my head and make me feel like giving up. And I kept a very sour mentality all of undergrad. 

The GPA is my only barrier. My reference letters were written by the CEO of a hospital, federal MP and my research prof. But obviously, that doesn't mean anything with a horrible GPA. 

I'm willing to pay for tutoring. I'm willing to pay a bit of extra rent to go to an easier school like Ryerson. I just need to get my grades up. 

But before I do all this, I just need reassurance that the schools will still accept a second degree. I'm sending emails out to all of them right now.

The problem about the terms is most schools don't count the summer time - plus you need realistically now a lot of ECs which can be fit in there. It isn't dead time as it were. Plus if you are well a bit sneaky you can advance prepare in summers for course the following year (honestly the things you can do ha). 

Most will within their rules. Be smart, be careful and if you do this cover all the bases. Like I said I have seen it work, and i have also not seen it work. With your now experienced approach you should be much better able to be aware of any warning signs you are slipping up. 

[MedHopeful2017]

7 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

The problem about the terms is most schools don't count the summer time - plus you need realistically now a lot of ECs which can be fit in there. It isn't dead time as it were. Plus if you are well a bit sneaky you can advance prepare in summers for course the following year (honestly the things you can do ha). 

Most will within their rules. Be smart, be careful and if you do this cover all the bases. Like I said I have seen it work, and i have also not seen it work. With your now experienced approach you should be much better able to be aware of any warning signs you are slipping up. 

You're completely right. This is a very stressful decision but I do want to give this my all and do whatever I need to do.

[MedHopeful2017]

I still need to figure out Ryserson's requirements. But keeping all requirements in mind for med schools:

Queens - none

McMaster - none

Western - 60/40

Toronto

• two full course equivalents (FCEs) in any life science.
• one FCE in any of social sciences, humanities, or a language.

Ottawa

• 6 units in humanities /Social Sciences
• 6 units in Biology or Physiology
• 3 units in Organic Chemistry
• 3 units in Chemistry
• 3 units in Biochemistry
• 3 units in Statistics

I think this is what it would look like:

Term 1 (Fall 2020)

Year 1 Chemistry

Year 1 Organic Chem part 1

Year 3 Humanities course

Year 3 Biology

Third year Bird Course

 

Term 2 (Winter 2021)

Year 1 Chem part 2

Year 1 Orgo part 2

Year 3 Humanities Course

Year 3 Biology

Third year Bird Course

 

Term 3 (Spring 2021) - Summer courses don't need to follow 60/40

Year 1 orgo part 3

Year 1 Stats

Year 1 chem 3

Year 3 Biology

Year 3 Humanities

 

Term 4 (Fall 2021)

Year 1 Biochem

Year 1 Stats part 2

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

4th year Bird Course

 

Term 5 (Winter 2022)

Year 1 Biochem part 2

Year 1 Stats course part 2

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

4th year Bird Course

 

Term 6 (Spring 2022)

Year 1 Biochem part 3

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

Bird Course

Bird course

 

I'm just trying to get in contact with Ryerson to see which courses can be transferred and how their entire process works.

[MedHopeful2017]

51 minutes ago, MedHopeful2017 said:

I still need to figure out Ryserson's requirements. But keeping all requirements in mind for med schools:

Queens - none

McMaster - none

Western - 60/40

Toronto

• two full course equivalents (FCEs) in any life science.
• one FCE in any of social sciences, humanities, or a language.

Ottawa

• 6 units in humanities /Social Sciences
• 6 units in Biology or Physiology
• 3 units in Organic Chemistry
• 3 units in Chemistry
• 3 units in Biochemistry
• 3 units in Statistics

I think this is what it would look like:

Term 1 (Fall 2020)

Year 1 Chemistry

Year 1 Organic Chem part 1

Year 3 Humanities course

Year 3 Biology

Third year Bird Course

 

Term 2 (Winter 2021)

Year 1 Chem part 2

Year 1 Orgo part 2

Year 3 Humanities Course

Year 3 Biology

Third year Bird Course

 

Term 3 (Spring 2021) - Summer courses don't need to follow 60/40

Year 1 orgo part 3

Year 1 Stats

Year 1 chem 3

Year 3 Biology

Year 3 Humanities

 

Term 4 (Fall 2021)

Year 1 Biochem

Year 1 Stats part 2

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

4th year Bird Course

 

Term 5 (Winter 2022)

Year 1 Biochem part 2

Year 1 Stats course part 2

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

4th year Bird Course

 

Term 6 (Spring 2022)

Year 1 Biochem part 3

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

Bird Course

Bird course

 

I'm just trying to get in contact with Ryerson to see which courses can be transferred and how their entire process works.

I'm assuming for the biology courses, I would be able to skip the pre-reqs and same goes for the humanity courses. But in terms of filling the Ryerson Biology degree requirements, this is what I was able to pull together:

Term 1 (Fall 2020)

CHY 103 - (1/3 Chemistry)

CHY 142 - (1/3 Organic Chem)

3rd year Humanities (1/6 Humanities course)

BLG 311 - (1/6 Biology)

MTH 380 - (1/3 stats)

 

Term 2 (Winter 2021)

CHY 113 - (2/3 Chemistry)

CHY 152 - (2/3 Organic Chemistry)

Math 480 - (2/3 stats)

3rd year Humanities (2/6 Humanities course)

BLG 316 - (2/6 Biology)

 

Term 3 (Spring 2021)

CHY 200 - (3/3 Organic Chemistry)

BLG 230 (3/6 Biology)

BLG 151 (4/6 Biology)

BLG 143 (5/6 Biology)

Humanities Course (3/6 Humanities course)

 

Term 4 (Fall 2021)

BCH 261 - (6/6 Biology)

Math 404 - stats 3

CHY 344 - Year 3 Chem

BLG 144 Biology II

4th year Humanities (4/6 Humanities course)

 

Term 5 (Winter 2022)

BCH 361 Year 3 Biochem part 1

BLG 567 - Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course (5/6 Humanities course)

Year 4 humanities (6/6 Humanities course)

PCS 120 Physics I

 

Term 6 (Spring 2022)

BCH 463 - Year 4 Biochem part 2

BLG 315 - Year 3 Biology

CPS 109 Computer Science I

BCH 880 - biochem lab

CMN 600

 

If no acceptances by then - Finish remaining courses

 

Term 7 (Fall 2022)

MTH 131 Modern Mathematics I

PCS 130 Physics II

BLG 307 - Year 3 Biology

3/4th year course

3/4th year course

 

Term 8 (Winter 2023)

MTH 231 Modern Mathematics II

SCI 180* Orientation

BLG 400 - Year 4 Biology

3/4th year course

3/4th year course

 

 

[MedHopeful2017]

Just now, MedHopeful2017 said:

I'm assuming for the biology courses, I would be able to skip the pre-reqs and same goes for the humanity courses. But in terms of filling the Ryerson Biology degree requirements, this is what I was able to pull together:

Term 1 (Fall 2020)

CHY 103 - (1/3 Chemistry)

CHY 142 - (1/3 Organic Chem)

3rd year Humanities (1/6 Humanities course)

BLG 311 - (1/6 Biology)

MTH 380 - (1/3 stats)

 

Term 2 (Winter 2021)

CHY 113 - (2/3 Chemistry)

CHY 152 - (2/3 Organic Chemistry)

Math 480 - (2/3 stats)

3rd year Humanities (2/6 Humanities course)

BLG 316 - (2/6 Biology)

 

Term 3 (Spring 2021)

CHY 200 - (3/3 Organic Chemistry)

BLG 230 (3/6 Biology)

BLG 151 (4/6 Biology)

BLG 143 (5/6 Biology)

Humanities Course (3/6 Humanities course)

 

Term 4 (Fall 2021)

BCH 261 - (6/6 Biology)

Math 404 - stats 3

CHY 344 - Year 3 Chem

BLG 144 Biology II

4th year Humanities (4/6 Humanities course)

 

Term 5 (Winter 2022)

BCH 361 Year 3 Biochem part 1

BLG 567 - Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course (5/6 Humanities course)

Year 4 humanities (6/6 Humanities course)

PCS 120 Physics I

 

Term 6 (Spring 2022)

BCH 463 - Year 4 Biochem part 2

BLG 315 - Year 3 Biology

CPS 109 Computer Science I

BCH 880 - biochem lab

CMN 600

 

If no acceptances by then - Finish remaining courses

 

Term 7 (Fall 2022)

MTH 131 Modern Mathematics I

PCS 130 Physics II

BLG 307 - Year 3 Biology

3/4th year course

3/4th year course

 

Term 8 (Winter 2023)

MTH 231 Modern Mathematics II

SCI 180* Orientation

BLG 400 - Year 4 Biology

3/4th year course

3/4th year course

 

 

These are their requirements: 

REQUIRED:

 

BLG 143 Biology I

CHY 103 General Chemistry I

MTH 131 Modern Mathematics I

PCS 120 Physics I

SCI 180* Orientation

 

BLG 144 Biology II

CHY 113 General Chemistry II

MTH 231 Modern Mathematics II

PCS 130 Physics II

 

CPS 109 Computer Science I

 

BLG 151 Microbiology I

BLG 230 Botany

BLG 311 Cell Biology

CHY 142 Organic Chemistry I

MTH 380 Probability and Statistics I

 

BCH 261 Biochemistry

BLG 316 Zoology

BLG 400 Genetics

BLG 567 Ecology

 

BCH 361 Advanced Biochemistry I

BLG 307 Molecular Biology

 

 

BCH 463 Advanced Biochemistry II

BLG 315 Evolution

 

BCH 880 Advanced Biochemistry Laboratory

 

CMN 600 Science, Communication and Society

[SoftTings]

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but I think when you're getting into posting every single course you'd be taking in your undergrad, this forum isn't the place to go. It's wayyy too specific to your situation, and nobody knows enough about you or these courses to give any sort of meaningful advice.

I suggest you talk to an academic advisor instead

[MedHopeful2017]

22 minutes ago, SoftTings said:

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but I think when you're getting into posting every single course you'd be taking in your undergrad, this forum isn't the place to go. It's wayyy too specific to your situation, and nobody knows enough about you or these courses to give any sort of meaningful advice.

I suggest you talk to an academic advisor instead

You're right. 

[Ijustwantmed]

1 hour ago, MedHopeful2017 said:

You're right. 

If its your dream you shouldnt kiss it goodbye! You can major in anything and do 2 years and have that count for western and queens. I was going to suggest UofT wGPA but they need full course loads so it would be cGPA for you. If you do well in those 2 years you could theoretically get into ottawa, western and queens. Do you think your GPA was because you were so involved? I had 2 jobs in my first year and second year of undergrad and I realized that in order to do well I couldnt have 2 jobs. It does sound like youre really involved which is awesome (honestly your ECs are amazing), but youd have to cut it down just to meet those cut offs. But yeah if thats your plan doing 2 years of uni and doing well in them + a good MCAT would make you check off the boxes for at least 3 ontario schools : im just another premed struggling too though so idk how much value this advice has, its my honest outlook on it though 

[Eatrasm]

6 hours ago, MedHopeful2017 said:

Term 4 (Fall 2021)

Year 1 Biochem

Year 1 Stats part 2

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

4th year Bird Course

 

Term 5 (Winter 2022)

Year 1 Biochem part 2

Year 1 Stats course part 2

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

4th year Bird Course

 

Term 6 (Spring 2022)

Year 1 Biochem part 3

Year 4 Biology

Year 4 Humanities course

Bird Course

Bird course

Does 4th year have to be majority 4th year courses? I thought 3rd year courses suffice.