Drug testing in meds

[leviathan]

Thanks for the brilliant contribution, buddy.

The fact that you didn't clarify yourself says lots about your character.

[thebouque]

I love the arrogance that emanates from you, Muse, and your partner thebouque - because you can insult someone's way of life, insinuating that the life you've led is somehow more "real" (whatever the hell that means to you) than someone else's, and than literally less than a minute later go on a diatribe about how we as future doctors should give patients the benefit of the doubt.

 

But let's be clear here. I was under the impression that as future doctors, we were still allowed to have our own opinions outside of the work environment. Oh - this just in - pm101 isn't a hospital, so you're welcome to share you opinions (but please, end the hypocrisy - I'm literally yawning when I read your posts).

 

Since you love citing your wildly successful druggy friends so much, here's a thought for you - have you ever entertained the notion that the licentious drug usage that you've described in some of your friends (forgiving, at the moment the illegality of it all - which you obviously don't care about anyways) can one day spiral into depression, abuse, and ultimately destruction of their otherwise healthy lives? The long-term effects of psychosomatic drugs, not unlike many habits or health impactors, can take years to surface appreciatively (hence the "long-term"!). Why don't you cite me one single 40-year follow-up study of persistent hard drug usage in professionals? Oh wait - there aren't any.

 

Is anyone supposed to be surprised that you can both be a professional and a drug user? I guarantee you that if I started doing ecstasy today, I would still pass my LMCCs with flying colours and probably make it through residency, because all the other things I have going for me will more than compensate for the deterrence of a drug addiction - la dee dah. But no doubt the habit will eventually catch up to me. Just like how smoking doesn't show an appreciable impact on cardiovascular disease until at least 20 pack years have been recorded. The fact of the matter is that, as sfinch pointed out, drug use is strongly associated with the underclass and physical/mental/social/economic degeneration overall. Like it or not, these effects are real, measurable, and have demonstrated causative association (not to mention they appeal to our sense of the obvious).

 

It must be really easy to be you, since every opinion you have is protected under the hospices of secular humanism and relativism which apparently have become the new religion. Why don't you make my day and go on another little didactic session about how closed minded the average upper middle class non-drug user is, or alternatively, you or a compatriot can reuse old faithful and simply pull another one of my quotes out of context. Either way, I encourage you to make your posts even longer since it's getting late and my lack of illegal prescription drugs is making it hard for me to sleep (and nothing quite soothes the mind like reading your liberalist propaganda). And hey, maybe if you talk long enough you'll actually come up with an original idea I haven't heard before and then you'll REALLY make my day.

 

 

 

Thanks for the brilliant contribution, buddy.

 

TLDNR 10 char

[oto]

TLDNR 10 char

 

TSDNR

ah, terrible humour.

[thebouque]

TSDNR

ah, terrible humour.

 

ahah but think about it, if it's TS, you just automatically read it. And where's your lawyer doctor buddy? it's been a while.

[oto]

ahah but think about it, if it's TS, you just automatically read it. And where's your lawyer doctor buddy? it's been a while.

 

hahah, i'm in the process of convincing him to contact the closest community college and start up on his first Real Degree!

[Oxyman11:11]

not a doc but let me tell you this story, i am , was... a patient at a local pain clinic due to my chronic pains. I am currently on 280mg Oxycontin / day - and the fellow - doc in training - was suspicious of me so they tested my piss, as they do with 99% of all other people there (from what I heard) to assure and keep my treatment safe.

 

I never have done any drugs other than OTC stuff and booze (historical).

 

My piss test came up + ' ve for cocaine and the dot did not even call me to tell me or anything. He simply let it go 2+ weeks and in the mean time my meds were dispensed from weekly to now daily. This means i was paying $11 per day for my meds, not to mention having to physically transprt my cute ass to the pharmasee* daily and so on ...

 

Un-believable!! Serious, why did he not call me right away instead of letting me possibly continue to mix oxy + coca for 2 full weeks (hypothet.) ???

 

Upon seeing his dum ass later I demanded they redo the test & test my pee that day again. I have not heard back since.

 

also, I did notify his dum ass that I no longer require their services / treatment and want my urine test results and it has now been another 2 weeks waiting???

 

Just a story .... you might tell around a campfire and draw paralells to your future in some way. synchronicity and related stuff happens to all of us.

[thebouque]

That's one sad story buddy.

You guys should all watch Requiem for a Dream if it hasn't been done before. It shows you how destructive addiction and drugs can be (without necessarily belonging to the lower class even though that's not shown in the movie), and it shows as well the view some doctors have of drug addicts.

[hopeforthebest]

 

By the way, you should question every rule and law, period, if it makes sense, it makes sense, if it doesn't and is a relic of tradition and ulterior motives, it should be dumped.

 

Love it.

 

First, while I would love to claim that I lack judgment for recreational drug users, I must admit that there might be a little bit there. However, I accept that there are behaviors worth judgment in myself, and therefore keep criticism to a minimum.

 

That said, I would ask this question: Regardless of whether you are a great doctor or not, it seems to me that drug use or abuse will, inherently, limit potential (note - I realize this is contentious and would love to hear more thoughts on the subject). However, should reaching potential be the ultimate goal for a physician, or rather, should he or she strive first to have an enjoyable and "full" life?

 

My personal belief (and if that doesn't interest you, skip this line - I won't be offended) is that after beating out thousands of applicants to get here, we have a responsibility to reach our potential and provide the best health care we possible can. Whether or not that is compatible with drug use - I don't know - but for me, it certainly isn't. Growing up, it was always impressed upon me that medicine is a noble profession, but the respect and responsibility associated with it are oft accompanied by a difficult life of public servitude and sacrifice. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced me into this profession, and while I have had to make sacrifices already, I am still absolutely delighted to be here.

 

I would also like to take a moment to bring up an amazing book - In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts - by Gabor Mate, MD. It's a book written for health professionals about drug abuse, and is absolutely wonderful and (I feel) is a must read for any physician, particularly when considering the ridiculous and endemic nature of the social problems we face today. Dr. Mate eloquently describes factors that lead to addiction and drug use, and I think that some of his claims are quite valid and important for all health professionals to keep in mind.

[apache]

Thanks,

 

I enjoyed you post! , I'll see if I can track down that book, sounds interesting.

 

Love it.

 

First, while I would love to claim that I lack judgment for recreational drug users, I must admit that there might be a little bit there. However, I accept that there are behaviors worth judgment in myself, and therefore keep criticism to a minimum.

 

That said, I would ask this question: Regardless of whether you are a great doctor or not, it seems to me that drug use or abuse will, inherently, limit potential (note - I realize this is contentious and would love to hear more thoughts on the subject). However, should reaching potential be the ultimate goal for a physician, or rather, should he or she strive first to have an enjoyable and "full" life?

 

My personal belief (and if that doesn't interest you, skip this line - I won't be offended) is that after beating out thousands of applicants to get here, we have a responsibility to reach our potential and provide the best health care we possible can. Whether or not that is compatible with drug use - I don't know - but for me, it certainly isn't. Growing up, it was always impressed upon me that medicine is a noble profession, but the respect and responsibility associated with it are oft accompanied by a difficult life of public servitude and sacrifice. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced me into this profession, and while I have had to make sacrifices already, I am still absolutely delighted to be here.

 

I would also like to take a moment to bring up an amazing book - In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts - by Gabor Mate, MD. It's a book written for health professionals about drug abuse, and is absolutely wonderful and (I feel) is a must read for any physician, particularly when considering the ridiculous and endemic nature of the social problems we face today. Dr. Mate eloquently describes factors that lead to addiction and drug use, and I think that some of his claims are quite valid and important for all health professionals to keep in mind.

[davidwillson]

They can actually order a test? How does that work - med students don't have any less rights than anyone else and the school cannot override your right to not be tested against your will.

 

Naturally I am not suggesting people should be abusing substances but I am curious about the legal issues involved

 

Well..the legality of the issue is tricky - would have to ask a lawyer. But patients have filed complaints about bad behaviour for people in meds - and if reasonable suspicion is there - a student could be let go/put on hold. We all know of one bizarre case in the yr above us.

[bj89]

Well..the legality of the issue is tricky - would have to ask a lawyer. But patients have filed complaints about bad behaviour for people in meds - and if reasonable suspicion is there - a student could be let go/put on hold. We all know of one bizarre case in the yr above us.

 

What happened in said bizarre case if you don't mind my asking?

[apache]

Yeah, like I said, they can' t force you to do one, but if enough suspicion is there they'll push for disciplinary action based on the strong evidence they have in the first place that you are seeing patients stoned, if you weren't using ne drugs though it's absolutely in your best interest to say yes as inapropriate behavior isn't as frowned upon as inapropriate behavior due to drug use on job and while there may be consequences, they will likely not be as severe as that of drug use while or before seeing patients.

 

Well..the legality of the issue is tricky - would have to ask a lawyer. But patients have filed complaints about bad behaviour for people in meds - and if reasonable suspicion is there - a student could be let go/put on hold. We all know of one bizarre case in the yr above us.

[Ubiquitine]

What happened in said bizarre case if you don't mind my asking?

 

Yeah, like I said, they can' t force you to do one, but if enough suspicion is there they'll push for disciplinary action based on the strong evidence they have in the first place that you are seeing patients stoned, if you weren't using ne drugs though it's absolutely in your best interest to say yes as inapropriate behavior isn't as frowned upon as inapropriate behavior due to drug use on job and while there may be consequences, they will likely not be as severe as that of drug use while or before seeing patients.

 

Actually you're answering a spam BOT. He said exactly what sfinch say ( go see the first page of this thread ). Without the quotation mark, of course.

 

Edit : see post number 9

[oto]

You should know he's a bot regardless of what it writes by his signature which has a link to 'watch free movies'. hahaha. Wow, these guys are clever..

[A-Stark]

FYI, but if anyone lodges any kind of complaint to the College, they will investigate. It may not end up going anywhere, but the College will not dismiss anything out of hand.

[sfinch]

The college will investigate any reasonable complaint of illegal or unethical behavior where a reasonable level of proof can be provided. Only a tiny percentage do reach a level where something is done. Usually false/illegal prescriptions, violence, sexual abuse and professional incompetence. Unfortunately not for being a douche.

[A-Stark]

No, the college will investigate all complaints without exception. Doesn't mean all or most investigations go very far, but don't be under the impression that they will reject anything out of hand immediately. Whatever you think of drugs personally, patients will have their own opinions that call for significant discretion in the use of any "substances".

[ploughboy]

Unfortunately not for being a douche.

 

Are you reading the back pages of Dialogue regularly? Every few months there's a case in there focusing on unprofessional behaviour (or, as the kids these days say: "being a douche")

 

It happens.

[itimebomb2]

What is this Dialogue you speak of?

[apache]

Probably the monthly provincial medical journal for your province, they put disciplinary action in the back.

 

What is this Dialogue you speak of?

[rmorelan]

Probably the monthly provincial medical journal for your province, they put disciplinary action in the back.

 

Yeah, doctor discipline is a public thing Imagine all of your colleagues reading about your misadventures.

[thisguy]

I didn't say my life was more real than yours, but I have no doubt that I've had a far far greater diversity of experiences than you have, therefore I have a more representative understanding of what the population, as a whole, is like. There's no such thing as a "real" life, there's no way one person can understand the totality of human experience, which is why it is important to ask our patients about their lives and why they do what they do.

 

I'm really only being arrogant if you take what I said literally, I was using mere rhetoric as a tool to be a bit retaliatory because of your comments on how those who drink their lives away are pathetic (which is judgmental, especially from a physicians perspective), so in a way I'm trying to reflect how your views make others feel by doing the same to you or Sfinch, if that's a little bit too difficult for you to understand, well excuse me, I'll try not to over tax your mind. I'm sure both of you have good reasons for your beliefs, you may have had experiences with certain individuals or been brought up in a certain way, and that's fair, I'm just afraid of how you'll treat those with addictions in your practice.

 

If Sfinch were my patient I would inquire what life experiences had led to his (bigoted and narrow-minded) views, and try to understand how his life experiences contributed to his views. I certainly hold my prerogative to have my own private views, as I've expressed numerous times; however, I will keep them to myself in interactions with my future patients, even if I think they are to blame for their own actions. I look at medicine from a means to ends utilitarian perspective, and try to take the values out of it so I can do what is best for the patient, which is my main value.

 

I'm sure the last two paragraphs should be enough to show that I am not a hypocrite, and if you yawn when you read my posts, why read them? I only respond because I enjoy writing and discussion and find the topic discussed to be fascinating, if I bore you, simply ignore me, it's not as if I'm taking this seriously.

 

It's funny you should mention secular humanism, as it doesn't pertain at all to this discussion. I'm also far from a secular humanist (I in fact dislike secular humanism because of it's moral relativism. However, I believe a strong set of values can be expressed through relative interpretation of the actions people undertake, and a regard for the underlying psychology behind those actions. On the other hand, I do subscribe to some post modern, deconstructivist views of reality, which you may confuse with secular humanism... but that doesn't mean we should throw the epistemological baby out with our dirty ontological bathwater, we may not have ultimate truth but we can derive information which can help us each develop our own normative truth) and have a very clear set of values, like I said before. In the end, I am pragmatic, and being a relativist is necessary in order to understand why our patients do what they do, it doesn't mean I myself subscribe to these values, but for the sake of my patients, I'm willing to try and understand.

 

If having an original idea makes me a judgemental bigot then I suppose I'm proud to be stupid, have fun navigating through all my pseudo-inteligentsia, post-modern, ostentatious, perceived secular humanistic language , although, why you would bother if I'm such a bore is a question to me.

 

As well, if you have insomnia, there are many alternatives to obtaining prescription medications illegally, you could try melatonin, or talk to your doctor about a low dose anti-psychotic like risperidone, olanzapine, or aripiprazole. Zopiclone and eszopiclone have a lower addictive potential than traditional benzodizepines, so those could be alternatives, however, I strongly caution you against obtaining prescription medications without a doctors' supervision as these medications have serious adverse effects.

 

Oh, how I like this post. Starting in paragraph 5: "secular humanism...moral relativism...post-modern, deconstructivist...epistemological...ontological...pseudo-inteligentsia, post-modern, ostentatious, perceived secular humanist language". I'm a big fan of when someone pretends to be pretentious in order to prove a point (which I sincerely hope was your aim, and not that you actually speak like that...if you do, however, I apologize for judging). However, it generally zings a bit better when all the spelling and grammar is correct. Zing!

 

That said, I enjoy your and the opposing views. They make for interesting reading. Personally, a good night-time cough syrup is my drug of choice.

[ploughboy]

Probably the monthly provincial medical journal for your province, they put disciplinary action in the back.

 

Provincial College of Physicians and Surgeons publication, which is quite different from the provincial medical association.

 

Schadenfreude is unbecoming, but some of the reported cases are quite instructive (about what *not* to do as a practicing physician!). Link:

 

http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/publications/dialogue/default.aspx?id=1866

[thebouque]

Oh, how I like this post. Starting in paragraph 5: "secular humanism...moral relativism...post-modern, deconstructivist...epistemological...ontological...pseudo-inteligentsia, post-modern, ostentatious, perceived secular humanist language". I'm a big fan of when someone pretends to be pretentious in order to prove a point (which I sincerely hope was your aim, and not that you actually speak like that...if you do, however, I apologize for judging). However, it generally zings a bit better when all the spelling and grammar is correct. Zing!

 

That said, I enjoy your and the opposing views. They make for interesting reading. Personally, a good night-time cough syrup is my drug of choice.

 

Welcome on the forum new comer or alternate ego.

[oto]

psh, who's this guy..