supafield Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 we're all trying to figure out what we want. when we find out is up to the carms gods. the question is what do we do with our time while we're trying? Sorry for being too one sided. This statement brings up the point I should have tried to make. Many people won't know what they want to do for a good while. If you're worried about about being competitive at the end of it, just be involved in ways you enjoy. I still think it's an overstatement to suggest everyone be ROAD's-centric from day 1 and try to do research in some competitive field for 2 years when you might apply to family, derm, emerge or obstetrics etc. Do things that can help your CV that you're genuinely interested in. If that's research than great. Just don't give up a wilderness/international elective, travel or other things you would love to do, because you think you need to be doing ENT/Plastics research or else. The false assumption, maybe implied in my last post, is that if you're happy to do family, you can or should just sit back and coast. You should still doing what you can to stay active and a good applicant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuma Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 C me too I wonder what's so bad bout it... There is nothing particularly bad about it. It is actually an interesting area. I had briefly looked into it when I was a med student and at the time, it was a bit hard to find a job (at least in the bigger centres). And because it is it's own specialty (ie. not a subspecialty from anatomic or general path) then you don't have much flexibility. So you can't fall back on a general path job until you find you perfect neuro path job. But if you like neuro and path, then I'd look into it at least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goleafsgochris Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 There is nothing particularly bad about it. It is actually an interesting area. I had briefly looked into it when I was a med student and at the time, it was a bit hard to find a job (at least in the bigger centres). And because it is it's own specialty (ie. not a subspecialty from anatomic or general path) then you don't have much flexibility. So you can't fall back on a general path job until you find you perfect neuro path job. But if you like neuro and path, then I'd look into it at least! The "pathologies" are actually fantastic jobs. They are stable, the job market is currently very very good, they have amazing hours (9-4 or LESS is typical), and they are selaried at over 300k. Why are they unpopular? My guess is that once med students are trained to have this super social job that involves tons of patient contact for 4 years, it is tough to accept a career that will mostly be spent in a lab. At least this was the feeling of most of my classmates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 The "pathologies" are actually fantastic jobs. They are stable, the job market is currently very very good, they have amazing hours (9-4 or LESS is typical), and they are selaried at over 300k. Why are they unpopular? My guess is that once med students are trained to have this super social job that involves tons of patient contact for 4 years, it is tough to accept a career that will mostly be spent in a lab. At least this was the feeling of most of my classmates. You forgot the most important: they're one of the most interesting fields in medicine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shikimate Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Pathology is a wonderful field of medicine, and I do agree it's interesting. However, if you check the public databases you'll find their salary isn't that high. Most will start at somewhere 170K, and then move up to around 300K. It's not common to find a pathologist whose salary exceeds 350K. Also remember if salary = no incorporation = higher taxes. Having said that the lifestyle is certainly an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japlanet Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 The "pathologies" are actually fantastic jobs. They are stable, the job market is currently very very good, they have amazing hours (9-4 or LESS is typical), and they are selaried at over 300k. Why are they unpopular? My guess is that once med students are trained to have this super social job that involves tons of patient contact for 4 years, it is tough to accept a career that will mostly be spent in a lab. At least this was the feeling of most of my classmates. I agree with this 100%. I'm applying for medical biochemistry which falls under the lab medicine umbrella and has good hours with good salaried pay. It's a great specialty and you can organize it so you have patient contact (consultation, specialty outpatient clinics). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 for the pathology aspect, it does sound fascinating but I'd be worried about employment in not-so-large centres. Is flexibility of where you choose to work drastically reduced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Well in Quebec ( I don't know about the rest of Canada) pathologists are not salaried and they can incorporate, and 50% of them work in academic center and 50% in community/regional hospitals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 you and blackjack have the most cynical views of CaRMs and residency. They've lived it. Most people get what they want in CaRMS, but that's little comfort to the ones who don't. if everyone followed brook's advice, many will be safe. the risk? you lose 2 summers to charting patients or running westerns.if everyone followed bloh's advice, many will be ill-prepared come carms. the risk? your 1st choice career. +1.. and it doesn't even take two summers to put a project on your CV and make connections in a department. One will often suffice. C me too I wonder what's so bad bout it... Pathology/lab medicine tends to be lesser known in general, and does not always appeal to students who always imagined themselves working in direct patient care. I was surprised about cardiac surgery. I thought it would be harder to match into. The job market is known to be tough. for the pathology aspect, it does sound fascinating but I'd be worried about employment in not-so-large centres. Is flexibility of where you choose to work drastically reduced? Not sure about medical biochemistry, but there are certainly pathologists running the labs in smaller hospitals, same as there are other specialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 There must be pathologists in smaller hospitals because 1) they're the ones who analyze biopsies 2) Every surgical specimen has to be analyzed by a pathology lab (ie a pathologist or a pathologist assistant supervised by a pathologist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloh Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 lol this is ridiculously biased. according to bloh, every specialty but family requires that we "slave away" and "brown nose." you neglected to address the vast majority (75% in some schools) who do not want family as their 1st choice and would rather slave away and brown nose and many do not know it in preclerkship. we're all trying to figure out what we want. when we find out is up to the carms gods. the question is what do we do with our time while we're trying? some people will not like family medicine. period. a lot of students don't know until 3rd year what they want. some have an idea and turn out to be right, but many change their minds. at the same time, the competitive specialties almost require that you do research in your preclerkship years. In the perfect world, every med student would know what they're getting into when they apply to medical school. In fact, I'd imagine that most students would think of family and internal med/hospitalist when they were getting into medicine. The people that think of anesthesia and other obscure specialties when they think of medicine is low. The problem with medical education and people that get into it, is that they have no ****ing clue what they're getting themselves into. It's glamorized on TV and then 2-3 years later they realize they have no interest in shortness of breath, abdominal pain and screening guidelines. Setting yourself up for a competitive residency aren't just the summery time commitments and elective shadowing. It's also the additional grueling training years and the lifestyle that comes with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 you're not addressing the issue here. the OP is asking you how he can be a better candidate for a few specialties, and you're (poorly) selling him family med. every specialty has it's pros and cons. you obviously think very highly of family med and that's fine. but to throw your own opinion around like it's gospel is doing a disservice to your younger colleges. The problem with medical education and people that get into it, is that they have no ****ing clue what they're getting themselves into. It's glamorized on TV and then 2-3 years later they realize they have no interest in shortness of breath, abdominal pain and screening guidelines. it appears that everyone but you is too stupid to realize what's good for them. have some faith. they'll figure it out. Setting yourself up for a competitive residency aren't just the summery time commitments and elective shadowing. It's also the additional grueling training years and the lifestyle that comes with it.family med is not for everyone. your career is a huge part of your life and thereby a huge part of your lifestyle. sure residency can be grueling at times and so can work life, but if they're happy i'm happy for them. you should try to do the same. hopefully then you might stop preaching family medicine exclusively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloh Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 you're not addressing the issue here. the OP is asking you how he can be a better candidate for a few specialties, and you're (poorly) selling him family med. every specialty has it's pros and cons. you obviously think very highly of family med and that's fine. but to throw your own opinion around like it's gospel is doing a disservice to your younger colleges. it appears that everyone but you is too stupid to realize what's good for them. have some faith. they'll figure it out. family med is not for everyone. your career is a huge part of your life and thereby a huge part of your lifestyle. sure residency can be grueling at times and so can work life, but if they're happy i'm happy for them. you should try to do the same. hopefully then you might stop preaching family medicine exclusively. I can't even gather why you got involved in this conversation in the first place, other than wanting to be confrontational needlessly. I was responding to brooks who claimed that everyone should gun for ROAD whether they thought they wanted it or not. That advice is absurd, especially in the context of the original poster who asked about FM/IM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corie Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I'd just like to thank everyone for all the valuable information and your opinions. Was definately worth a few hours read and were all very helpful. I don't think I have much interest in the surgical specialties and would rather be in primary care as a generalist. I'm now looking at general internal medicine. If I'd like to choose the city of my residency, how can I make myself more competitive for that? Do I need to even worry about it (given the table tooty kindly provided stated IM had a ratio of 0.9 First Choice/Seat)? Thanks a ton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I'd just like to thank everyone for all the valuable information and your opinions. Was definately worth a few hours read and were all very helpful. I don't think I have much interest in the surgical specialties and would rather be in primary care as a generalist. I'm now looking at general internal medicine. If I'd like to choose the city of my residency, how can I make myself more competitive for that? Do I need to even worry about it (given the table tooty kindly provided stated IM had a ratio of 0.9 First Choice/Seat)? Thanks a ton! Depends on the city and program somewhat. Check this out for UofT internal med to get an idea. http://premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39960 A lot of it will come down to doing visiting electives in the city of your choice in 4th year and getting along with/impressing them and getting good references/evals out of the elective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Setting yourself up for a competitive residency aren't just the summery time commitments and elective shadowing. It's also the additional grueling training years and the lifestyle that comes with it. Setting yourself up for a competitive residency during your preclerkship years doesn't commit you to applying to that field if something else tickles your fancy later on (and it is not uncommon for people to change their minds) - it just keeps your options open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 They've lived it. Most people get what they want in CaRMS, but that's little comfort to the ones who don't. CaRMS is arguably the most stressful process I've ever experienced. And I haven't even submitted my application yet. I *think* things will work out... +1.. and it doesn't even take two summers to put a project on your CV and make connections in a department. One will often suffice. It's also true that deciding late is not an inherent barrier - what depends is how you go about your application, personal letters, etc. and how you can "spin" it. But if you really want to do something and can explain why clearly and articulately (and you otherwise do not set off any red flags), things ought to work out. But, really, we should not be stuck having to do this in one-shot. I don't know if the rotating internship could ever be feasibly brought back, but there's no justification for making residency training choices as restrictive as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 CaRMS is arguably the most stressful process I've ever experienced. And I haven't even submitted my application yet. I *think* things will work out... Good luck. At the end of the day, you'll all be doctors somewhere in Canada. Although there is the chance to reapply, I do feel that getting into medical school was the more critical step for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Cloak Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 CaRMS is arguably the most stressful process I've ever experienced. And I haven't even submitted my application yet. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! (see the timeline! see the timeline!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I can't even gather why you got involved in this conversation in the first place, other than wanting to be confrontational needlessly. I was responding to brooks who claimed that everyone should gun for ROAD whether they thought they wanted it or not. That advice is absurd, especially in the context of the original poster who asked about FM/IM. same reason you came in. i'm not alone in finding your view and arguments absurd. i posted for all readers of this thread, not just the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evillegoman Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 you and blackjack have the most cynical views of CaRMs and residency. But that's the truth, and you know it too old friend Nice to see you are still active here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 same reason you came in. i'm not alone in finding your view and arguments absurd. i posted for all readers of this thread, not just the OP. (10chars) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well, not finally submitted with all the selections and stuff. My "extra documents" are in and those personal letters are the things on the go. I'll finish all the annoying crap tomorrow or Monday. Blahhhh. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! (see the timeline! see the timeline!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Path is pretty badass, but I agree, if they only had some more interaction with patients then I'd consider it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Path is pretty badass, but I agree, if they only had some more interaction with patients then I'd consider it. General or clinical pathologists have some interaction with patients (plasmapheresis), also some pathologists in the USA (and maybe in Canada) perform FNAs. However, it is true that 99% of anatomical pathologist in Canada have zero interaction with patients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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