May 15th Support thread

[murphy303]

Let us get this thread back on track to May 15th. Positive vibes only, please

 

Lol

 

I'm sure you'll all get in.

[murphy303]

I guess you are right about that being anecdotal because I have also noticed the same thing for people with high GPA lol.

 

Anyways, I agree with what murphy and kyla are saying regarding the AQ vs. NAQ. While they are each 50/50 the NAQ has little variation and most people end up getting similar scores where as the AQ varies significantly with a slight change in %. Now there is the issue of whether I think thats fair or not, and I think that practically speaking it is fair. Its hard to evaluate NAQ, and control it for things such as applicant age.

 

Control for age. Are you kidding. Age makes you a better applicant because you have more life experience. You would discount that? This is like saying you would correct for intelligence, because it's not fair that some people are naturally smarter

[Economist]

Control for age. Are you kidding. Age makes you a better applicant because you have more life experience. You would discount that? This is like saying you would correct for intelligence, because it's not fair that some people are naturally smarter

 

Age doesn't necessarily mean more life experience, and especially more relevant life experience to become a doctor. Also age doesn't make you a better applicant... Would you want the government to train a 40 year old medical student who might only have 20 years to practice while spending government money in subsidizing tuition...?

[murphy303]

Age doesn't necessarily mean more life experience, and especially more relevant life experience to become a doctor. Also age doesn't make you a better applicant...

 

Age doesn't mean more life experience... You think so, eh?

 

Generally, I think there is a substantial difference in maturity between young students and older ones, and it has major implications for things like counseling patients.

 

I think that it doesn't necessarily make you a better applicant, but often it does. It depends how you use your time. It's more time to improve your application, get work, travel experience, do research, etc. More likely to be comfortable in your shoes and conduct a good interview.

 

Would you want the government to train a 40 year old medical student who might only have 20 years to practice while spending government money in subsidizing tuition...?

 

I think this is unrelated

[Patterson]

I think what ubcMDhopeful meant by "control for age" is preventing all older applications from appearing better than young applicants on paper simply because of increased NAQ entries/durations. Obviously it's not just the number of entries that counts, but the weights of each. The inherent difficulty is determining which activities/durations deserve higher scores and how much higher should they be? For example: as an older applicant, should my thousands of volunteer hours carry more weight than a younger applicant's $10,000 scholarship? If so, how many volunteer hours would the younger applicant need in addition to his scholarship to deserve a better score than mine? Reportedly, UBC seeks diversity in their accepted applicants and this should extend to their age as well. Thus, from time to time a younger (hopefully more accomplished) applicant needs to appear more desirable than an older one.

 

 

I made a smart move and booked the 15th off work this year! The last two cycles made me realize that regardless of what news the 15th brings I'll have a tough time focusing on anything for a while .

[songofdovely]

Sorry to derail the thread.

 

It doesn't metter to me anyways anymore. What they are "trying to achieve" is to keep people like me out. I don't care, I'm risky because I have a 10% in differential equations from 1998. I know that. That's why I changed my tactics, because it was obvious t me that UBC didn't want me. The fact that UBC got rid of the 10-yr-rul and UofC implemented it means that they value the committment I am willing to make, and see me as having value to the profession.

 

I can tell you that I am very much desired in my community as a future physician. UBC doesn't want me, but they do, and I will work very hard for them and to serve them.

 

My mstake in the original post- it's 62.05 to get a TFR as an IP. That means if you get a perfect NAQ of 50, you still need almost 79% average to even get to the interview stage.

 

77% is mathematically impossible to even get an interview anymore, and that is the bottom line.

 

You should probably read my post a little closer before jumping into conclusions. The final GPA they used to assess me was never 77%. As stated in my original post, 77% was my cGPA. My last 60 was something closer to 87, so my AQ was based off a score closer to something like 81-82 (these numbers are off the top of my head - I dont want to go and recalculate all those courses I took in the SSC but you get the point). So, yes, it is possible to actually get an interview with a cGPA of 77% because what you are using to assess AQ is actually an ADJUSTED gpa (for my year factoring in the last 60, for current years dropping your lowest year).

 

Had I been able to drop my lowest year, my GPA would have risen even higher than the boost that I got from the last 60 rule. That, combined with a close to perfect NAQ + above average interview would probably still get me in. That's the point I was trying to make with the new system.

 

I'd also be wary about making claims about the 50/50 and stating them as fact. Your logic is based of an assumption that a larger SD means that it is weighted more, which may not necessarily be true. A larger SD reflects a larger variability in GPA in comparison to variability in non-academics. It means that while grades are relatively different from applicant to applicant, the NAQ profile amongst applicants are a lot more similar. It does NOT mean that your academics are more important, but it DOES mean that it is harder to distinguish yourself from the next applicant in terms of non-academics. This is another (and IMO more likely) explanation for stats that you have posted.

 

*I should clarify that I am strictly speaking about the pre-interview process...as mentioned by another poster your NAQ is not factored in post-interview (based off of the CBC report) so from application to acceptance, I agree that they are not weighted equally.

[Flow Cytometry]

Smart move

 

 

 

I made a smart move and booked the 15th off work this year! The last two cycles made me realize that regardless of what news the 15th brings I'll have a tough time focusing on anything for a while .

[ubcMDhopeful]

Once again sorry for taking this off topic but I feel obligated to clarify my points. The general argument I was trying to make was that the NAQ has many factors that cannot be controlled (AQ does as well but to a lesser degree). It is very hard to rank extracurricular activities based on a paragraph; furthermore, it is hard to ensure that people are not cheating with their hours (you don't want selective pressure for people who are good at lying on applications).

 

Furthermore, while you can make conclusions based on peoples experiences you cant make conclusions on their overall skill set in particular skill sets. For example, someone can have thousands of hours in a leadership role but that does not mean they are better than a natural born leader who has very few hours of experience in leadership.

 

What I meant to say about age is that it can influence the NAQ and did not really say in what direction. There is no doubt that if you have more time you will have more NAQ achievements. Now this introduces bias as the reviewer has to account of that. There might be a reviewer that downplays older applicant's achievements thinking that a younger person who is already having many accomplishments can get more impressive experiences than a set older applicant if given the same time. You can have the opposite scenario where younger applicants are at a disadvantage.

 

 

Having said all that I think the NAQ is VERY valuable but it is just hard to assess practically. Hopefully this does not start a flame war lol

[herewego]

At this point, all that should be focused on is one's AQ (GPA). If people want to complain, discuss, or rebuttal about the various components of AQ/NAQ then start another thread because that aspect of the application process is completely irrelevant at this point.

 

In addition, for future applicants looking for application help or more information on the AQ/NAQ aspect, starting a thread with that in the topic headline is easier to locate than scrolling/clicking through pages of a thread titled "May 15th Support."

[songofdovely]

At this point, all that should be focused on is one's AQ (GPA). If people want to complain, discuss, or rebuttal about the various components of AQ/NAQ then start another thread because that aspect of the application process is completely irrelevant at this point.

 

In addition, for future applicants looking for application help or more information on the AQ/NAQ aspect, starting a thread with that in the topic headline is easier to locate than scrolling/clicking through pages of a thread titled "May 15th Support."

 

Yes, I agree. Anyways, the only reason I posted in this thread was to give moral support for those who feel as if their GPA is inadequate and by reassuring them that so long as they have received an interview, they have a chance. =)

[wutdo]

My thoughts on the whole GPA issue are the following:

 

The chances of getting an interview these days with an adjusted GPA of less than lets say 82 or 83 is pretty difficult. Chances are that in the future it will get even harder. I wouldn't be surprised if a few years down the road having an 85% GPA doesn't score you an interview (based on the stats which show an increase in the average GPA of interviewees each year).

 

The system makes it so that a sheltered third year student with a 90% average is pretty much guaranteed to get an interview. Some people think it isn't fair, but that's life. We either deal with it or you can take the easy route which is to quit, complain and give up.

 

If you are someone who got an interview with <85% GPA, it doesn't mean you are for sure going to get rejected. Likewise just because if you have a 90%+ GPA it doesn't mean you will automatically get accepted. This type of thinking if silly.

 

One thing I think a lot of you don't consider is that on the UBC med website it says that they also look for an upwards trend in your grades on your transcript. Who knows how much of a role this could play for us people that did poorly during the beginnings of our degrees?

 

There is no point in being bitter towards anything at this point, we can't do anything. Just sit back and enjoy these last ~10 days

[Economist]

Age doesn't mean more life experience... You think so, eh?

 

Generally, I think there is a substantial difference in maturity between young students and older ones, and it has major implications for things like counseling patients.

 

I think that it doesn't necessarily make you a better applicant, but often it does. It depends how you use your time. It's more time to improve your application, get work, travel experience, do research, etc. More likely to be comfortable in your shoes and conduct a good interview.

 

 

 

I think this is unrelated

 

Life experience is such a broad term, so you'd have to be more specific. For example, would you say that 40 yr old cousin who has done nothing with his life would have more life experience than an accomplished 22yr old humanitarian simply because he's older? If we mean by maturity, it is somewhat different from simply age. How do you even measure maturity?

 

There is a reason why only Canadian citizen can apply and why In Province applicants are favored. Do you really think people would rather have older individuals go through expensive training for our limited number of doctors?

[murphy303]

Life experience is such a broad term, so you'd have to be more specific. For example, would you say that 40 yr old cousin who has done nothing with his life would have more life experience than an accomplished 22yr old humanitarian simply because he's older? If we mean by maturity, it is somewhat different from simply age. How do you even measure maturity?

 

We are talking about a pool of medical school applicants, not "40 year olds who have done nothing with their lives". If you are a few years older than average, and are trying to get into med, you should not be penalized, as you proposed (ie. "correcting for age") for the extra couple of years you used to improve your application over younger applicants.

 

And, yes, a 40 year old person will always have insight that a 22 year old doesn't and could never have.

 

As for measuring maturity, what are you talking about?

 

There is a reason why only Canadian citizen can apply and why In Province applicants are favored. Do you really think people would rather have older individuals go through expensive training for our limited number of doctors?

 

I really don't care and won't speculate about what other people think. That is not an argument and it's not relevant. I think for myself.

 

We have a free and open society. Obviously, your age should not have an impact on your access to education. This is guaranteed by the constitution of Canada also known as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

 

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law

 

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

 

The above has been interpreted to apply to access to education, which is considered a human right in this country.

 

The number of older students enrolled will self-limit anyway, for circumstantial reasons.

[murphy303]

At this point, all that should be focused on is one's AQ (GPA). If people want to complain, discuss, or rebuttal about the various components of AQ/NAQ then start another thread because that aspect of the application process is completely irrelevant at this point.

 

In addition, for future applicants looking for application help or more information on the AQ/NAQ aspect, starting a thread with that in the topic headline is easier to locate than scrolling/clicking through pages of a thread titled "May 15th Support."

 

Okay, okay... I'll stop posting on this thread Back to studying!

[kylamonkey]

Again, sorry for derailing the thread.

 

I'm not bitter, nor did I say anywhere that the way UBC looks at applicants is "unfair". I just decided to play the game and move to somewhere my personal profile will be looked at favorably, and UofC does. My GPA is actually higher than the admitted average there from last year! It's an awesome feeling to have my hard work valued.

 

+ve vibes only from here on...

 

Good call on booking May15th off. I'm booked off as of the 10th. I only interviewed at uofc, and they unfortunately may be releasing a "few days early"- whatever that means! It's kind of awful because we're expecting it any minute for the next week and a half.

[Economist]

And, yes, a 40 year old person will always have insight that a 22 year old doesn't and could never have.

[/Quote]

And vice versa. It really doesnt matter. Few years older doesnt make you a better candidate in terms of relevant life experience. It depends on each individual and what they have done with their lives. Just because an applicant is few years older doesnt give them more life experience... I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand.

 

I really don't care and won't speculate about what other people think. That is not an argument and it's not relevant. I think for myself.

 

We have a free and open society. Obviously, your age should not have an impact on your access to education. This is guaranteed by the constitution of Canada also known as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

 

 

 

The above has been interpreted to apply to access to education, which is considered a human right in this country.

 

The number of older students enrolled will self-limit anyway, for circumstantial reasons.

 

You dont care about what others think? That is not a quality I would want to see from my doctors. You said older age makes you a better applicant in general. Im showing you why they wouldnt be, not why they should be discriminated.against.

[murphy303]

And vice versa. It really doesnt matter. Few years older doesnt make you a better candidate in terms of relevant life experience. It depends on each individual and what they have done with their lives. Just because an applicant is few years older doesnt give them more life experience... I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand.

 

I don't read any new information here, you are just repeating your last post. No need to discuss it further if you have nothing new to say. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong.

 

You dont care about what others think? That is not a quality I would want to see from my doctors. You said older age makes you a better applicant in general. Im showing you why they wouldnt be, not why they should be discriminated.against.

 

No, I care about what you think since I am arguing with you. You wrote "Do you really think people would rather have..." In general when arguing, you should write facts or write your opinion, not what you think other people believe, because that is hearsay and I don't care about your opinion of what people think.

 

and no need to be writing crap like this: "You dont care about what others think? That is not a quality I would want to see from my doctors." We are having a debate, that's all

 

And you are right, that it was not you that argued for "correcting for" age. I did attribute that post to you, but it was ubcMDhopeful. Sorry about that. I think that idea is bizarre and probably a magnet for lawsuits

[murphy303]

Again, sorry for derailing the thread.

 

I'm not bitter, nor did I say anywhere that the way UBC looks at applicants is "unfair". I just decided to play the game and move to somewhere my personal profile will be looked at favorably, and UofC does. My GPA is actually higher than the admitted average there from last year! It's an awesome feeling to have my hard work valued.

 

+ve vibes only from here on...

 

fingers crossed for you Kyla

[herewego]

Given that not many applicants know about PM101, how the heck does the May 15th Support thread have over 11,000 views!

[monty]

Given that not many applicants know about PM101, how the heck does the May 15th Support thread have over 11,000 views!

 

Never underestimate the power of a few neurotic premed students! Just like the comedy channel...time well wasted.

 

I am nervous this year, but getting more calm as the day approaches? I feel different last year, just letting things roll out and I am ready for another round of applications if need be. It is what it is. I want it more than ever, but I feel better about the process?

 

Any re-applicants feel this way as well?

 

P.s. if I get rejected I won't be speaking like this hahaha...

[Patterson]

I feel similar monty, but I'm not sure the reasoning behind it! It's hard to decide whether or not I'm truly OK with allowing strangers to make a decision that affects my life so profoundly or if I'm erecting a defense mechanism of some sort. Maybe a combination of the two!?

[monty]

I feel similar monty, but I'm not sure the reasoning behind it! It's hard to decide whether or not I'm truly OK with allowing strangers to make a decision that affects my life so profoundly or if I'm erecting a defense mechanism of some sort. Maybe a combination of the two!?

 

Probably a combination. I guess it is familiar territory now as well. I hope this is your year my friend.

[mfork]

Never underestimate the power of a few neurotic premed students! Just like the comedy channel...time well wasted.

 

I am nervous this year, but getting more calm as the day approaches? I feel different last year, just letting things roll out and I am ready for another round of applications if need be. It is what it is. I want it more than ever, but I feel better about the process?

 

Any re-applicants feel this way as well?

 

P.s. if I get rejected I won't be speaking like this hahaha...

 

I agree as well... after being really anxious last year (and going through the hell of being waitlisted), I find myself feeling impatient, but calm this time around. I did my part and I can't control what happens now, so I guess there isn't much point in worrying about it? I don't understand my own reaction either haha.

[st :)]

1 more week! Eeeeek!

[med-dream]

I agree as well... after being really anxious last year (and going through the hell of being waitlisted), I find myself feeling impatient, but calm this time around. I did my part and I can't control what happens now, so I guess there isn't much point in worrying about it? I don't understand my own reaction either haha.

 

Me too. I'm at the interview cut-off line. So it is like playing a dice - it is totally out of my control & expectation.