RGK Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Honest question here I know what everyone is going to say that money was only 1 of the factors they considered when they applied to medicine ( and some may admit it was a BIG factor) so let me put it this way...... If the average income of a physician was around 75 K only but earning a spot in a medical school is still as competitive as it is today ....... would you have still gone though all this trouble to get into medicine ? Just wanna here out your thoughts..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 With an expected $75k income, after overhead I would hope, I would still be pursuing medicine, yes. There is a line below which it wouldn't be fair to my family - eg. Nothing left after student loans - given the time investment *they* are making in my education, but that line is well below $75k. $75,000 a year is still quite a lot of money, certainly enough for a comfortable standard of living, particularly with a working spouse. It is significantly more than I have ever personally earned. My family - two adults, two children - will earn about $50k this year and we are fairly comfortable, we just have to be careful about large expenditures. A stable, predictable, $75k a year is nothing to sniff at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Too many factors to consider, i'm sure if the renumeration were to drop significantly, it wouldn't make sense for a large amount of people. The sacrifices of medical school on finances, personal life and everything in between is nothing to take lightly. Take a look at the US for example, where you can spend 200k+ to get your medical degree, and then interest and all that. Future earnings for your time and investment into a career should always be considered, to do so would be dishonest to yourself and your potential family members who may be dependent on you etc.Birdy makes a good point, but I would also ad that it really depend on where you live as well. While you can live comfortably on less in certain areas, it would be hard to scrap by in big cities with comparable values. And as well personal expectations come largely into play. I honestly don't know what people who make 500k per year do with all that money, but i guess, the more you make - the higher your expenditures go to follow. When you once may have shopped diligently at no-frills, maybe you start transitioning into whole foods or some upscale boutique grocery store, as time is money, and its more worth it for you to work then shop around? Who knows! Everyone is different! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprite Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I would argue that if physicians made 75 k a year, acceptance into medical school would be SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to the point were I think there would be almost no competition. Doesn't make much sense to spend a collective average amount of 12 years of schooling (assuming 4 years undergrad, 4 years medicine and 4 years residency +/- 2 years)to be making the same salary that someone can make coming out of a 4 year professional entry program like engineering, nursing, xray, sono etc. I get that people claim just to "love heping people", but you helping yourself and your family should be your #1 priority. On a personal note I always wondered how medical doctors got such a high salary in the first place? Like what is the history behind the process of it? Medicine is not the only profession where actions impact lives literately. Think about engineers building bridges, nuclear reactors, chemical plants, buildings. Anyone know how medicine got such a high salary and "social respect" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGK Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Okay let me refine my question: If an engineer made 100K per year and a physician only 75K, would you pursue engineering instead ? You might be wondering where am I going with this... The thing is medicine has it all..... money + prestige + everybody likes you cuz you are a doctor and you save people everyday.... but if let's say engineering pays more..... would you turn your back on medicine and pursue engineering just because it pays more and obviously much easier to get into ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGK Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I would argue that if physicians made 75 k a year, acceptance into medical school would be SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to the point were I think there would be almost no competition. Doesn't make much sense to spend a collective average amount of 12 years of schooling (assuming 4 years undergrad, 4 years medicine and 4 years residency +/- 2 years)to be making the same salary that someone can make coming out of a 4 year professional entry program like engineering, nursing, xray, sono etc. I get that people claim just to "love heping people", but you helping yourself and your family should be your #1 priority. On a personal note I always wondered how medical doctors got such a high salary in the first place? Like what is the history behind the process of it? Medicine is not the only profession where actions impact lives literately. Think about engineers building bridges, nuclear reactors, chemical plants, buildings. Anyone know how medicine got such a high salary and "social respect" ? Haha...... I was writing my comment while you posted this......same thinking about engineering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGK Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 With an expected $75k income, after overhead I would hope, I would still be pursuing medicine, yes. There is a line below which it wouldn't be fair to my family - eg. Nothing left after student loans - given the time investment *they* are making in my education, but that line is well below $75k. $75,000 a year is still quite a lot of money, certainly enough for a comfortable standard of living, particularly with a working spouse. It is significantly more than I have ever personally earned. My family - two adults, two children - will earn about $50k this year and we are fairly comfortable, we just have to be careful about large expenditures. A stable, predictable, $75k a year is nothing to sniff at. I specifically choose 75K because it is a borderline income...... if I said 50K then the answer would be a definite no..... I am trying to eliminate the prosperity factor that comes with being a doctor but of course no one will go into medicine if they will come out at the other end struggling to make a living Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGK Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I would argue that if physicians made 75 k a year, acceptance into medical school would be SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to the point were I think there would be almost no competition. Doesn't make much sense to spend a collective average amount of 12 years of schooling (assuming 4 years undergrad, 4 years medicine and 4 years residency +/- 2 years)to be making the same salary that someone can make coming out of a 4 year professional entry program like engineering, nursing, xray, sono etc. I get that people claim just to "love heping people", but you helping yourself and your family should be your #1 priority. On a personal note I always wondered how medical doctors got such a high salary in the first place? Like what is the history behind the process of it? Medicine is not the only profession where actions impact lives literately. Think about engineers building bridges, nuclear reactors, chemical plants, buildings. Anyone know how medicine got such a high salary and "social respect" ? It would be significantly easier because a lot of people will lose interest......that means your answer is no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprite Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Haha...... I was writing my comment while you posted this......same thinking about engineering Haha looks like we were thinking the same thing But if the conditions stayed static to what they are now regarding medicine (same amount of schooling, on- call, clerkship, residency, all the testing etc etc .. ) than i just wouldnt go into medicine. But I would not necessarily pick engineering right over it. however if the profession became like an apprenticeship where you learn on the job (yea i know how ridiculous and unrealistic that is ) then potentially maybe, but only if i didnt have to spend so much damn time in school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Okay let me refine my question: If an engineer made 100K per year and a physician only 75K, would you pursue engineering instead ? You might be wondering where am I going with this... The thing is medicine has it all..... money + prestige + everybody likes you cuz you are a doctor and you save people everyday.... but if let's say engineering pays more..... would you turn your back on medicine and pursue engineering just because it pays more and obviously much easier to get into ? Have it all? Medicine also has extremely long work weeks, a significantly longer amount of time in training and school, stress, anxiety etc haha. Im sure an engineer in a higher position would have similar stresses' but they don't have the same length of training and constant unknown aspects involved. But it is apples to oranges. The better comparison would be for a position in a health care related field: In the US, they have physicians, and physician assistants(PA). The PA does school for less and still gets the patient interactions and working towards helping people etc. Some clear 6 figures, but what they don't have to deal with is all the extra stress and paperwork the physician has to deal with. The years of residencies, fellowships etc. (They can in a way still specialize by working in a given field and learning through clinical experience). This is definitely a good option for some people who want to focus more on work/life balance without sacrificing their academic desires and aspirations to "help others" (as always is pointed out). But you have to realize there are many people who despite the wages, actually do enjoy the prospect of the continued learning and challenges that go along with some field trajectories and medicine in general. As long as you don't make reimbursements ridiculously low, i don't think there would be that significant of a drop in interest from those types of individuals. You would definitely see a drop in individuals whom are pursuing medicine because of its stability, financial security and prestige factors etc. It still fathoms me people actually care about prestige. At the end of the day if you're in a busy specialty working 60+ hrs/week, I would think people would really only care what their family and friends think when they can find the time to actually live life and build upon those relationships with them. Prestige isn't going to console you after a tough day, or remember a special memory of a long forgotten time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I would argue that if physicians made 75 k a year, acceptance into medical school would be SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to the point were I think there would be almost no competition. Doesn't make much sense to spend a collective average amount of 12 years of schooling (assuming 4 years undergrad, 4 years medicine and 4 years residency +/- 2 years)to be making the same salary that someone can make coming out of a 4 year professional entry program like engineering, nursing, xray, sono etc. I get that people claim just to "love heping people", but you helping yourself and your family should be your #1 priority. On a personal note I always wondered how medical doctors got such a high salary in the first place? Like what is the history behind the process of it? Medicine is not the only profession where actions impact lives literately. Think about engineers building bridges, nuclear reactors, chemical plants, buildings. Anyone know how medicine got such a high salary and "social respect" ? It's funny, because in many other places of the world even 75K is high (but they also have different educational structures, costs of living, lifestyles and work hours etc). I'm still waiting for the day for someone to do actual wage analysis on the average physician, because i'm still of the mode of thinking that physician wages are many times than not, deceptive. On a per hour basis, i would be surprised if it is even 50% of what the general population would think it to be. Not taking into account the 4 years of medical school and 3-6 years of undergrad/masters(accounting for the people who get in after 3rd year, and for the ones who take longer/do masters etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 With an expected $75k income, after overhead I would hope, I would still be pursuing medicine, yes. There is a line below which it wouldn't be fair to my family - eg. Nothing left after student loans - given the time investment *they* are making in my education, but that line is well below $75k. $75,000 a year is still quite a lot of money, certainly enough for a comfortable standard of living, particularly with a working spouse. It is significantly more than I have ever personally earned. My family - two adults, two children - will earn about $50k this year and we are fairly comfortable, we just have to be careful about large expenditures. A stable, predictable, $75k a year is nothing to sniff at. You would get that at the resident level around PGY 4 if you were in a specialty that went that long. With benefits I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I really tired of the training argument for many physicians because what was their alternative? A biology barrista? There are few career options that would allow people to make such a living from health sciences, biology, chemistry, etc degrees so soon after their undergrad let alone at all. Doctors have 3-4 years of medical school and then they are paid for their training - just like most people are. There are LOTS of new graduates in their careers who are working 50 and 60 hour weeks during their "training" years and who don't get a massive income bump once they are done. Granted, residents typically work far more than 60 hours weeks but again, they are rewarded quite handsomely once their training is complete. Now of course to be a doctor you ARE absolutely giving up something but I'd say current remuneration is more than adequate to compensate. Would it be at $75K? I'm not so certain except that there are still many careers that give up quite a bit without, more or less, stable income guarantees. Love what you do and become good at what you do and I generally believe the money issue takes care of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I specifically choose 75K because it is a borderline income...... if I said 50K then the answer would be a definite no..... I am trying to eliminate the prosperity factor that comes with being a doctor but of course no one will go into medicine if they will come out at the other end struggling to make a living hehehe that borderline income is the median family income in Canada (and that would be from one of usually two people in the family earning now a days). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I specifically choose 75K because it is a borderline income...... if I said 50K then the answer would be a definite no..... I am trying to eliminate the prosperity factor that comes with being a doctor but of course no one will go into medicine if they will come out at the other end struggling to make a living Oh I should also add that of course there would be some form of counter point to the cost of things if the income would fall. I mean the only reason they charge that high of a tuition for medical school is they are well aware people can pay it off. as a small example in part that is what happens in Quebec - the tuition is lower so they pay residents less. There will always be some form of give and take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Haha looks like we were thinking the same thing But if the conditions stayed static to what they are now regarding medicine (same amount of schooling, on- call, clerkship, residency, all the testing etc etc .. ) than i just wouldnt go into medicine. But I would not necessarily pick engineering right over it. however if the profession became like an apprenticeship where you learn on the job (yea i know how ridiculous and unrealistic that is ) then potentially maybe, but only if i didnt have to spend so much damn time in school. sure feels like an apprenticeship I mean sure I had 2 years of classroom instruction .... but it is followed by 7 years plus 1-3 years more (fellowships) of on the job training for my field. There is even progress levels that seem exactly like apprenticeships (junior/senior vs fellow vs staff in medicine compared to apprentices, journeymen, and masters in plumbing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 hehehe that borderline income is the median family income in Canada (and that would be from one of usually two people in the family earning now a days). It's funny when people complain to not be making enough (overheard some union works, whom i know for a fact make at least 90k a year with benefits), when in fact they are in the top 10% of earners in all of Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartortle Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Compensation is a strong factor to why it is competitive. It is the same reason why Yale/Harvard MBA programs are competitive; the compensation for their grads are roughly $100,000 US dollars. But it isn't the only factor. Other things include media portrayal of the profession, culture views, and exposure to the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 It's funny when people complain to not be making enough (overheard some union works, whom i know for a fact make at least 90k a year with benefits), when in fact they are in the top 10% of earners in all of Canada. yeah.....I mean I get it - people have goals and maybe that amount sounds low to reach them. Still there is a reason mortgages are 25 years long, and there is 40 years to save for retirement. Things take time. and of course it is also true that a disproportionate number of people hoping to go into medicine come from a family with a higher income bracket. That also skews things a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Compensation is a strong factor to why it is competitive. It is the same reason why Yale/Harvard MBA programs are competitive; the compensation for their grads are roughly $100,000 US dollars. But it isn't the only factor. Other things include media portrayal of the profession, culture views, and exposure to the field. absolutely I will say it is a lot of hard work for staff - they should be paid well. Just had a talk at Ottawa today where we went over the life of a neuro interventional radiologist - some long hours there, some really long hours there (nothing quite like having 36 hour straight shifts of hard work with zero sleep). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 yeah.....I mean I get it - people have goals and maybe that amount sounds low to reach them. Still there is a reason mortgages are 25 years long, and there is 40 years to save for retirement. Things take time. and of course it is also true that a disproportionate number of people hoping to go into medicine come from a family with a higher income bracket. That also skews things a bit. Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 At least Canadian physicians generally don't have to worry about malpractice lawsuits (correct me if i'm off base) compared to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprite Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 To bad there isnt such a thing as "Bro School" Where you drink canadian(maybe Coors banquet) all day, game nhl for countless hours, and then have a night out on the town. .. everyday Someone(government) should seriously subsidize this for a small group of people (5 per year) , where they take the 5 biggest bros (girls too obvi) and they teach them how to be terminally chill for the rest of their lives. Interested applicants would obviously have to write the BROCAT (Basic Recreational Occupation College Admission Test) where applicants would have to prove that they know what all the things a real bro would know. Best bar in town (across north america) best hangover brunch (again across north america) and things alike. Now that would be a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 At least Canadian physicians generally don't have to worry about malpractice lawsuits (correct me if i'm off base) compared to the US. to a large extent yes. It isn't as big of a problem - in part because Canadian law doesn't tend to give our the rather excessive I think awards the US courts do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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