Is the amount of money dentists make misleading?

[confused_student]

Everyone talks about dentists being paid really well. But I feel like it might be misleading if on average they make around 120k and don't get any retirement or benefits. Plus taxes would take a big cut. With saturation, that number might go down too. 

 

Edit: not sure why this got deleted, I must have done it by accident.

[UFT2021]

and tuition is so expensive compared almost all programs

[confused_student]

2 hours ago, UFT2021 said:

and tuition is so expensive compared almost all programs

Omg yes. But I've shadowed a dentist who said it was not extremely hard to payoff. However considering the amount of debt you would expect the payoff to be good

[hjgygyuguygu]

...

[confused_student]

54 minutes ago, Bentist said:

I read in a report that the average dentist in Ontario saw a slight pay decrease (it was a single digit percentage) in 2018 I believe. 

Increasing saturation, more competition for patients, high startup costs, million dollar price-tags on existing offices, $200K+ tuition... It's definitely not as great a career as it once was if you want to make good money, but thats the same story in a lot of professions

Ahhh yes. I've heard so many great things about dentistry but seeing posts online about saturation make me hesitate. The government of Canada website predicts that they will be more jobs than people seeking in this decade but I don't know how much we can trust that considering the high amount of forgein dentists that can gain license. Dentistry and engineering are my two top career choices and both are equal in terms of my interest. Dentistry is more appealing because of the pay and work-life balance but if it's the case that this is not true I'd rather go with engineering because it would take less time and money

[hjgygyuguygu]

.

[molarmania]

2 hours ago, Bentist said:

Depends on which fields of engineering you are interested in, you can do very well. If you do software engineering for example, thats a 4 year undergrad and you can easily make as much a dentist I imagine, especially if you go to the states. Dentists don't have as great a work-life balance as they once did. Many are working evenings and weekends to try and get more patients, and the financials of dentistry is very stressful. You are running a business with very little business training. 

You're a high school student I'm guessing? If you are not able to decide a path for now, that is OK. You can still apply to dentistry if you do an engineering undergrad, as long as you are able to get good marks.

I am finishing up a science degree, and I was planning on doing dentistry. It seemed like the perfect career! I applied in 3rd year to UofT, got an interview, got waitlisted... but by then I was no longer happy with my path and didn't even reply to stay on the waitlist. Now I'm trying to figure out what I want to do... medicine? Second degree in computer science? I'm not sure..

I've heard that med is arguably worse due to the pervasiveness of being overworked in a publicly-funded system that always expects you to do more with less funding. Kinda like the NHS situation in Europe.

[rmorelan]

13 minutes ago, molarmania said:

I've heard that med is arguably worse due to the pervasiveness of being overworked in a publicly-funded system that always expects you to do more with less funding. Kinda like the NHS situation in Europe.

well we aren't salaried usually - so it is somewhat hard to be both overworked, and under paid. Usually the busier the service, correspondingly the higher the pay (at least in the same discipline). 

In the US and in the NHS you are salaried (I believe usually - exceptions are there) so over work is a real possibility. 

It is funny sometimes as a resident where we getting crushed thinking this is so painful, while the staff is just smiling away....

that doesn't mean we don't have other ways that funding cuts can be bad for us and the patient - removing support workers for instance makes the doctor have to do more (or the resident in particular do more at the hospitals I have been at ha). 

 

[PA2021]

.

[confused_student]

23 hours ago, PA2021 said:

Sure dentistry isn't as great as it used to be, you still make a great income. Oversaturation is an issue with ITDs but if your willing to work slightly outside urban centres, the pay and work schedule is great. I've only heard positives from my dental friends and they're relatively fresh grads. Choose whatever career you feel is best for you, don't underestimate the fact that you'll be doing this for the rest of your life (or a big chunk).

Very true. I've heard a lot of good things from actual dentists as well. It just scares me when everywhere I go I see a dental clinic and I think of all the saturation. 

[Starburst]

It depends where you practice. I have a few friends in Alberta that just graduated and are taking home $20-30k/month working 30min away from a major city and 2 friends in the GTA taking home $10-15k/month. It also works differently here in the US where I live. In Michigan, associate dentists get paid daily salaries ("minimum guarantees") by corporate companies and it's usually $600-700 USD per day, meaning that you have potential to make more. 

Here is a detailed catalog of how much dentists make in the US based on location: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2017/may/oes291021.htm.
If you notice, it varies so much by location. Keep in mind, that's all in USD. So you'll actually be making 1.3x in CAD dollars.

[confused_student]

11 hours ago, Starburst said:

It depends where you practice. I have a few friends in Alberta that just graduated and are taking home $20-30k/month working 30min away from a major city and 2 friends in the GTA taking home $10-15k/month. It also works differently here in the US where I live. In Michigan, associate dentists get paid daily salaries ("minimum guarantees") by corporate companies and it's usually $600-700 USD per day, meaning that you have potential to make more. 

Here is a detailed catalog of how much dentists make in the US based on location: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2017/may/oes291021.htm.
If you notice, it varies so much by location. Keep in mind, that's all in USD. So you'll actually be making 1.3x in CAD dollars.

Woah that's crazy. I actually live in a major city in Alberta and want to stay here so that's good news

[Viola]

On 2/14/2020 at 5:04 AM, Starburst said:

It depends where you practice. I have a few friends in Alberta that just graduated and are taking home $20-30k/month working 30min away from a major city and 2 friends in the GTA taking home $10-15k/month. It also works differently here in the US where I live. In Michigan, associate dentists get paid daily salaries ("minimum guarantees") by corporate companies and it's usually $600-700 USD per day, meaning that you have potential to make more. 

Here is a detailed catalog of how much dentists make in the US based on location: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2017/may/oes291021.htm.
If you notice, it varies so much by location. Keep in mind, that's all in USD. So you'll actually be making 1.3x in CAD dollars.

Is there a website that shows this type of statistics for Canada?

[cleanup]

Dental incomes will become more and more disparate/varied as time goes on. The average will go down. The outliers will go both directions. This is only a natural consequence of low demand, high supply, saturation and corporatization. 

Take any numbers you hear and chop 15-20% off the top for self-reporting bias.

[Lvl3sonly]

On 2/16/2020 at 11:40 PM, Viola said:

Is there a website that shows this type of statistics for Canada?

No, there isn't. However, the numbers quoted in your post are pretty accurate.

[Lvl3sonly]

On 2/12/2020 at 10:53 AM, confused_student said:

Everyone talks about dentists being paid really well. But I feel like it might be misleading if on average they make around 120k and don't get any retirement or benefits. Plus taxes would take a big cut. With saturation, that number might go down too. 

 

Edit: not sure why this got deleted, I must have done it by accident.

There is no chance in hell the average dentist only makes 120k

[rmorelan]

Finding out exact numbers is a challenge - like it is really for any business (what does the average gas station make? car repair shop? you can get estimates and people have ideas about their particular situation but these are all private businesses that don't have to centrally report anything. If fact the more you make the less likely you want to talk about anything ha)> 

 

[FutureDMD-QC]

On 2/14/2020 at 5:04 AM, Starburst said:

It depends where you practice. I have a few friends in Alberta that just graduated and are taking home $20-30k/month working 30min away from a major city and 2 friends in the GTA taking home $10-15k/month. It also works differently here in the US where I live. In Michigan, associate dentists get paid daily salaries ("minimum guarantees") by corporate companies and it's usually $600-700 USD per day, meaning that you have potential to make more. 

Here is a detailed catalog of how much dentists make in the US based on location: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2017/may/oes291021.htm.
If you notice, it varies so much by location. Keep in mind, that's all in USD. So you'll actually be making 1.3x in CAD dollars.

Can Canadian fresh graduates work in the US? I know you have to pass the US board but what are the other the requirements to be able to work in the US? 

[SamR]

Anyone know how dentists afford opening a clinic these days? Looks like with some quick research in Toronto the cheapest clinics are well over half a million and I don't get how the funding works for that. Haven't even started my D1 but it's always nice to think ahead...

[Starburst]

6 hours ago, FutureDMD-QC said:

Can Canadian fresh graduates work in the US? I know you have to pass the US board but what are the other the requirements to be able to work in the US? 

You can but it's very tough. There is a national board exam (part 1 and part 2) and then regional exams (CDCA/ADEX). The regional exams are the brutal ones since you need real patients with specific lesions to show up on the day of your exam. That means you have to find 4-5 patients with those lesions, fly them from Canada to the US, pray they qualify on the day of the exam, and then pass. If you fail any section, you have to redo that section. Basically it's an uphill battle unless you graduated from a US dental school. There's only 4 states that don't have these regional exams.

[TheMolarBear]

20 minutes ago, SamR said:

Anyone know how dentists afford opening a clinic these days? Looks like with some quick research in Toronto the cheapest clinics are well over half a million and I don't get how the funding works for that. Haven't even started my D1 but it's always nice to think ahead...

Practice loans/mortgages from banks. Funding isn't an issue. 

[toothurty]

2 hours ago, Starburst said:

You can but it's very tough. There is a national board exam (part 1 and part 2) and then regional exams (CDCA/ADEX). The regional exams are the brutal ones since you need real patients with specific lesions to show up on the day of your exam. That means you have to find 4-5 patients with those lesions, fly them from Canada to the US, pray they qualify on the day of the exam, and then pass. If you fail any section, you have to redo that section. Basically it's an uphill battle unless you graduated from a US dental school. There's only 4 states that don't have these regional exams.

Certain states like California also allow you to apply for licensure without writing the regional exams after completion of a 1 year AEGD or GPR. 

[HopefulDDS]

3 hours ago, Starburst said:

You can but it's very tough. There is a national board exam (part 1 and part 2) and then regional exams (CDCA/ADEX). The regional exams are the brutal ones since you need real patients with specific lesions to show up on the day of your exam. That means you have to find 4-5 patients with those lesions, fly them from Canada to the US, pray they qualify on the day of the exam, and then pass. If you fail any section, you have to redo that section. Basically it's an uphill battle unless you graduated from a US dental school. There's only 4 states that don't have these regional exams.

The boards are being integrated moving forward (not separated into 2 parts)! Also I just did a quick search and discovered Dalhousie is a location for the CDCA exam. Maybe this is going to become a trend at other Canadian schools as we see more collaboration with the US (eg. several schools joining the AADSAS application).

This part is just speculation but there is a conversation going on about stopping patient based examinations due to the ethical implications, so things might be evolving in the future

[FutureDMD-QC]

5 hours ago, Starburst said:

You can but it's very tough. There is a national board exam (part 1 and part 2) and then regional exams (CDCA/ADEX). The regional exams are the brutal ones since you need real patients with specific lesions to show up on the day of your exam. That means you have to find 4-5 patients with those lesions, fly them from Canada to the US, pray they qualify on the day of the exam, and then pass. If you fail any section, you have to redo that section. Basically it's an uphill battle unless you graduated from a US dental school. There's only 4 states that don't have these regional exams.

What are those 4 states if I may ask?

Also, do you need to fly Canadian patients? I have relatives who live in the US so they could help me find people who can qualify as patients.

[Stethescope]

6 minutes ago, FutureDMD-QC said:

 

https://ndeb-bned.ca/en/accredited

I would be cautious of finding your own patients and instead relying on patient finding services. They're expensive but you'd rather do it properly the first time than trying multiple times.