For those of us still waiting....

[Vallinar]

correct me if i'm wrong... but the SWOMEN program was also to recruit and retain doctors to practice in the SWOMEN region... so its not unreasonable to assume people who have lived in such regions through HS would choose to practice there after med school. Ofcourse some are rural but some technically aren't (ie London), so perhaps pure rural practice isn't the only objective of the program and thus i don't totally disagree with their approach. (It would be interesting to see if any of the swomen applicants were given coniditonal acceptance based on HS verification tho).

 

I agree that in regards to the rural objective of program it would be better to holistically measure an applicants devotion to rural (ie look at whether they have devoted alot of ECs in rural regions and so on)

[Alastriss]

Jectin - The argument isn't quite what you mentioned. We all agree with the points you brought up.

 

The argument was establishing a fairER system for selecting those dedicated to rural medicine because:

- Some swomen applicants have no intention of rural medicine

- some non-swomen applicants have intention of practicing rural medicine

- the lowered cutoffs, (and this is almost verbatim - i ready very heavinly into the publications released by UWO) were instituted after the post interview advantage because they realized that the swomen applicants from rural areas did not have the resources to attain the mcat scores and gpas to make those cutoffs in the first place. So sure they have that advantage post interview, but if there aren't many making it to the interview stage then its not a big help. So they dropped the cutoff, and rightfully so. It is not fair to expect the same level of academic aptitude from those that have less academic resources. So we come to the heart of the argument; There are swomen applicants getting those dampened cutoffs applied to them, but have the 'big city kid' advantage.

 

Vallinar - sure the HS you go to is important, and it is a FAIR assumption, but you can more confidently state that a bulk of your class is dedicated to rural medicine if you review each applicant based on the appropriate merits and comitments they have taken towards rural medicine.

[Sheena815]

I was just curious, does anyone here actually know where they want to practice at this stage in life? Cause I sure don't. I don't have a "favorite" city, although southwestern ontario is "home" to me since I grew up here, making it more likely that I will stay here. I know I wouldn't go back to my HS town (Sarnia) ever, but would consider living in the london/ windsor area.

 

This discussion just got me thinking about that... I know I couldn't say at this point where I want to live. And there are other factors that will come into play, such as where I do residency, where my family lives, where my bf gets a job, etc. That's one reason why I'd never accept something like NOSM has, requiring you to work in a certain area upon graduation. There are so many other variables besides even where I want to be that are going to impact that decision.

[hulkrules]

Windsor...

Not the most glamerous city

Practice in Windsor and live in a nearby small town along the many waterfronts (just look at Essex County)

Not a very hectic city and Detroit is across the border for shopping and Sports

Plus by the time we are ready to practice, Windsor's economy should be recovered and the city will be in growth with whatever new industry comes in

[lostintime]

I was just curious, does anyone here actually know where they want to practice at this stage in life? Cause I sure don't. I don't have a "favorite" city, although southwestern ontario is "home" to me since I grew up here, making it more likely that I will stay here. I know I wouldn't go back to my HS town (Sarnia) ever, but would consider living in the london/ windsor area.

 

This discussion just got me thinking about that... I know I couldn't say at this point where I want to live. And there are other factors that will come into play, such as where I do residency, where my family lives, where my bf gets a job, etc. That's one reason why I'd never accept something like NOSM has, requiring you to work in a certain area upon graduation. There are so many other variables besides even where I want to be that are going to impact that decision.

 

I don't know either. I think 4 years is a VERY VERY long time (even though time does fly, but still) and many things can change in that period of time. Therefore, I have no idea right now. At least I have time to decide hehe....

[lostintime]

I'm kind of curious...how come there's such a high proportion of UWO undergrads in med? Is it because they're a better fit for the school?=P

[ploughboy]

Its not so much venting PB, maybe borderline venting, but in a cautious way so as to not troll. sure the class may have 60% of students from nonswomen areas, but that doesn't mean anything if you don't look at the number of applicants. The argument about cost is simply that non-swomen don't have t same chance at attaining the seats as a swomen applicant. The acceptance/applicant ratio is not the same - this is where my argument draws its strength from, not the raw values.Danceprincess already mentioned this in the preceeding post. This isn't an issue at all. These measures are of fundamental significance if we are go improve rural care - I completely support this.

 

What I do have a problem with is giving a ridiculous advantage to people who are considered SWOMEN by title but not in essence.

What I was alluding before, and now, is exactly what danceprincess mentioned in the preceeding post. That's plain unfair.

 

Hey,

 

I was directing my reply to danceprincess, actually. Her implications that swomen applicants are inbred and unmotivated and would somehow damage the school were uncalled for and, I suspect, sour grapes.

 

Regarding the fairness of UWO's approach: it isn't. It's blatantly discriminatory. I was actually surprised by the skew, based on the numbers from Dean Herbert that you posted upthread. Ottawa has a similar approach, with tiered GPA cut-offs depending on where you're from and what language you're fluent in. If memory serves, the maritime and prairie schools also give significant advantages to "local" applicants. South of the border, you're SOL trying to get into a state school if you're deemed not to be a resident of that state. Such is life.

 

It's also important to note that y'all keep saying "rural", but the phrase that usually gets tossed around by UWO is "rural/regional" or some-such thing. It's phrased that way to include the urban centres in SW Ontario (London, Windsor, etc), and rightly so. Do you know how hard it is to find a family doctor in London itself, a city with a freakin' medical school? Likewise in Windsor.

 

It's not a perfect system, and it never will be. Sorry that it hasn't worked out for you thus far.

 

Good luck,

 

pb

[mcpherv]

Hey,

 

It's also important to note that y'all keep saying "rural", but the phrase that usually gets tossed around by UWO is "rural/regional" or some-such thing. It's phrased that way to include the urban centres in SW Ontario (London, Windsor, etc), and rightly so. Do you know how hard it is to find a family doctor in London itself, a city with a freakin' medical school? Likewise in Windsor.

 

pb

 

Just to play devils advocate here - there is a general physician shortage in Canada that is not limited to London and the surrounding region. In Kingston, approx 20,000 people don't have a physician and a large number of people that do have one have to travel quite a ways out of town to see them. Queen's has not implemented any policies to give an advantage to individuals from the Kingston region.

 

Part of the problem here is that its not just that Western is preferentially recruiting SWOMEN area residents, but that there are people from regions with medical schools that are just as affected by the doctor shortage that don't have their regional medical school giving them preferential treatment.

 

Oh well, hopefully it works out for us all this summer.

[Gob]

In the future this narrow minded, inbred approach is going to impact negatively on the quality of the institution. The students aren't going to be high achievers. Western won't be reknowned. I would think alumni that have supported their alma mater in the past are going to think twice in the future when they appreciate that Western is no longer an international or even a national school but really a regional institution.

 

Really? Whew, thanks for warning me! As a result of this, I will be dropping out tomorrow... I would offer you my spot in clerkship, but it sounds like your fears about this school becoming less "reknowned" would probably prevent you from taking it. Thanks for the tip though, you just saved me a few years of work.

[Jectin]

Jectin - The argument isn't quite what you mentioned. We all agree with the points you brought up.

 

The argument was establishing a fairER system for selecting those dedicated to rural medicine because:

- Some swomen applicants have no intention of rural medicine

- some non-swomen applicants have intention of practicing rural medicine

- the lowered cutoffs, (and this is almost verbatim - i ready very heavinly into the publications released by UWO) were instituted after the post interview advantage because they realized that the swomen applicants from rural areas did not have the resources to attain the mcat scores and gpas to make those cutoffs in the first place. So sure they have that advantage post interview, but if there aren't many making it to the interview stage then its not a big help. So they dropped the cutoff, and rightfully so. It is not fair to expect the same level of academic aptitude from those that have less academic resources. So we come to the heart of the argument; There are swomen applicants getting those dampened cutoffs applied to them, but have the 'big city kid' advantage.

 

Vallinar - sure the HS you go to is important, and it is a FAIR assumption, but you can more confidently state that a bulk of your class is dedicated to rural medicine if you review each applicant based on the appropriate merits and comitments they have taken towards rural medicine.

 

It is true that some SWOMEN applicants have no intention on practicing rural medicine and some non-SWOMEN would like to practice rural medicine. For the former, these individuals are just part of the recommendations made by a few studies to increase the enrollment of students from rural backgrounds in hopes that a portion of these students will return to these areas and practice. And even if they don't return, at least there will be a greater number of physicians that understand the challenges of rural medicine as they may have been patients or have seen the inner workings of rural hospitals. This is important for collaborative care especially telemedicine in which big centers communicate with smaller regional centers (this is the rationale for rural week after 1st year medicine).

 

For those who are non-SWOMEN and want to practice rural medicine, you are going to get your rewards soon enough. Yes it will be harder for you to get in if the cutoffs aren't applied to you, but when you do get in, communities will be on you like white on rice. You will get nice incentives to go to these communities and practice (house + golf membership + more money + job for your spouse etc). So yes, it is challenging now, but if you really want rural medicine, you will be rewarded later.

 

The big city kids getting the SWOMEN advantage are just a consequence of the system designed to recruit students who have a propensity to return to these communities. The alternative which is a screening process for rural commitment could have a detrimental effect. Consider the following:

 

Western announces that they have lowered cutoffs only for those who show dedication for rural/regional medicine. Pre-meds start going out of their way to get this advantage and volunteer in rural areas. Higher socioeconomic positioned students have the resources to be able to do this (housing + travel etc). This now biases the population receiving the cutoffs (especially those who don't live in SWOMEN region) to those having high economic status (who may not even want to do rural medicine). This is the exact opposite thing that Western wants to do (the rationale for abundant bursaries and scholarships).

 

Secondly, lets say only SWOMEN individuals who also volunteer in rural/regional settings get the cutoffs. Majority of SWOMEN pre-meds will therefore volunteer in their own communities and the implementation of this policy is not going to filter anybody.

 

So it is a tricky area to reformat the policies. The one they have right now is likely the best one for now. If it succeeds in generating increases in rural/regional physicians, then it will likely not change. If it fails at its goals, you will definitely see a change within the next 15 years.

[Alastriss]

It is true that some SWOMEN applicants have no intention on practicing rural medicine and some non-SWOMEN would like to practice rural medicine. For the former, these individuals are just part of the recommendations made by a few studies to increase the enrollment of students from rural backgrounds in hopes that a portion of these students will return to these areas and practice. And even if they don't return, at least there will be a greater number of physicians that understand the challenges of rural medicine as they may have been patients or have seen the inner workings of rural hospitals. This is important for collaborative care especially telemedicine in which big centers communicate with smaller regional centers (this is the rationale for rural week after 1st year medicine).

 

For those who are non-SWOMEN and want to practice rural medicine, you are going to get your rewards soon enough. Yes it will be harder for you to get in if the cutoffs aren't applied to you, but when you do get in, communities will be on you like white on rice. You will get nice incentives to go to these communities and practice (house + golf membership + more money + job for your spouse etc). So yes, it is challenging now, but if you really want rural medicine, you will be rewarded later.

 

The big city kids getting the SWOMEN advantage are just a consequence of the system designed to recruit students who have a propensity to return to these communities. The alternative which is a screening process for rural commitment could have a detrimental effect. Consider the following:

 

Western announces that they have lowered cutoffs only for those who show dedication for rural/regional medicine. Pre-meds start going out of their way to get this advantage and volunteer in rural areas. Higher socioeconomic positioned students have the resources to be able to do this (housing + travel etc). This now biases the population receiving the cutoffs (especially those who don't live in SWOMEN region) to those having high economic status (who may not even want to do rural medicine). This is the exact opposite thing that Western wants to do (the rationale for abundant bursaries and scholarships).

 

Secondly, lets say only SWOMEN individuals who also volunteer in rural/regional settings get the cutoffs. Majority of SWOMEN pre-meds will therefore volunteer in their own communities and the implementation of this policy is not going to filter anybody.

 

So it is a tricky area to reformat the policies. The one they have right now is likely the best one for now. If it succeeds in generating increases in rural/regional physicians, then it will likely not change. If it fails at its goals, you will definitely see a change within the next 15 years.

 

 

Some interesting points!:

- the socioeconomic facets are alive and kicking today. Students with doctor parents can get job shadowing opportunities and job opportunities I could only dream of

- Richer families can afford volunteer abroad trips.

 

UWO can have residency status still apply. It may be too difficult to evaluate a swomen applicants intention for rural medicine, but non-swomens should be given a little more of a chance. I understand your concerns, which are entirely valid and easily anticipated because they are logical, but they can be turned around.

 

I think the system should work, I don't know which study I read that said this (I don't even know if it was in Canada either). The question is more of a matter of efficiency. Say western has y number of seats. if they dedicated a fraction x/y to rural applicants but arent getting a large % eventually going into rural medicine, then they are going feel a pressure to make x a larger number. The larger x becomes, the smaller 1-x becomes. Since we all know that increasing seats in medical school is very expensive, a lack of efficiency:

 

- robs seats from everyone else (like myself and others who are from areas that, at best, receive non to insignificant residency advantage).

- Gives the wrong people a big advantage

 

Yet after its all said and done, we can all find a kink in the admission policies of every school.

[ploughboy]

Just to play devils advocate here - there is a general physician shortage in Canada that is not limited to London and the surrounding region. In Kingston, approx 20,000 people don't have a physician and a large number of people that do have one have to travel quite a ways out of town to see them. Queen's has not implemented any policies to give an advantage to individuals from the Kingston region.

 

Part of the problem here is that its not just that Western is preferentially recruiting SWOMEN area residents, but that there are people from regions with medical schools that are just as affected by the doctor shortage that don't have their regional medical school giving them preferential treatment.

 

Oh well, hopefully it works out for us all this summer.

 

Arguably Queen's should be doing something about the physician shortage in SE Ontario. It's actually kind of suprising the MOHLTC hasn't leaned on Queens to do so.

 

That's sort of the flip side of the argument. Why should UWO train physicians who are ultimately going to work in the GTA? Ahh, politics...

 

Balancing regional/provincial/national interests in med school is hardly a new issue . For example, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was applying to meds, one or both of the Alberta schools had some sort of special application criteria for applicants with roots in the Yukon/NWT. It's a compromise, and not everybody's going to be happy with it.

 

Take a deep breath, everybody. UWO's waitlist does move, and many people who are initially waitlisted eventually matriculate. I'm one of them.

 

Cheers,

 

pb

[ploughboy]

I think the system should work, I don't know which study I read that said this (I don't even know if it was in Canada either). The question is more of a matter of efficiency. Say western has y number of seats. if they dedicated a fraction x/y to rural applicants but arent getting a large % eventually going into rural medicine, then they are going feel a pressure to make x a larger number. The larger x becomes, the smaller 1-x becomes. Since we all know that increasing seats in medical school is very expensive, a lack of efficiency:

 

A valid argument, which is somewhat blunted by the fact that UWO is claiming a large increase in the percentage of grads practicing rural medicine. Quoting the inimitable Dr. Chan ( http://www.swomen.ca/uploads/Newsletter/newsletter_vol4_final.pdf ) :

 

As indicated by Dr. James Rourke in his article entitled “SWORM to SWOMEN: a Recipe for Success” in an issue of the SWOMEN Newsletter last June, the overall percent of medical graduates from The University of Western Ontario establishing rural practice increased from 17.5% to 25% from 1999 to 2005, whereas it declined from 19.8% to 12.3% for the national average in the same period. For this achievement, The University of Western Ontario and the SWOMEN program received the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada first Rural Educator’s Award in 2006 for being the medical school with the largest

increase in graduates who became rural physicians.

 

Given the time-frame, I'd attribute that increase not to increased acceptance of Swomen students, but to exposure to smaller communities via "discovery week" and the requirement that clerks work for a month outside of LondonWindsor (see Tyler C's article in the same edition of the Swomen newsletter for anecdotal evidence of the same).

 

One would expect an increase in the number of Swomen matriculants would only increase the percentage of graduates practicing in SW Ontario.

 

On the flip side, UWO has a vested interest in showing the MOHLTC that the number of graduates practicine "rural" medicine has increased. "Rural" isn't defined anywhere in Dr. Chan's article. Is he including people who practice in Windsor? Docs who live in London and practice in St. Thomas or Ilderton? There's plenty of room for fudging there.

 

 

UWO can have residency status still apply. It may be too difficult to evaluate a swomen applicants intention for rural medicine, but non-swomens should be given a little more of a chance.

 

Non-Swomen applicants who receive an interview have a 28% chance of matriculating. They obviously have a higher chance than that of receiving an acceptance. I don't have numbers for other schools at my finger-tips, but I suspect that's not far off from other schools.

 

 

Yet after its all said and done, we can all find a kink in the admission policies of every school.

 

Yup. As a smart dude once said: The only perfect admissions policy is one that lets me in!

 

Hang in there!

 

pb

[Alastriss]

I think you brought up a good point ploughboy. Many of the med students I talked to at interview weekend who did the rural elective found that they enjoyed it and came back for seconds. It may be attributed to that. I personally would have never ever ever imagined myself to be even interested in rural medicine, until a valuable experience I have had recently. Im not gung ho about it, but I certainly would very strongly consider it and will give it a strong consideration.

 

 

With that said, I think if queen's were to adapt a similar philosophy as UWO to assist SE ontario, that would be pretty unfair to a lot of premeds from urban centers who will literally have to resort to two schools that already are difficult as it is. Yet it's already unfair to SE ON as it is.

 

I just wanted to make this clear. Whether I was on the waitlist or if I wasn't, I would still make these arguments and proceed in the same way I have. If me being on the waitlist had anything to do with what I said, well then I probably didn't have much to say in the first place (in terms of significance at least). Finally, I am not against the concept of SWOMEN by all means, my argument can be summarized to advocate the following: I am just asking for a few people to put in a few more hours to make things just a little fairer and help a few people get a little closer to their dreams.

 

Apologize for incoherence - I am so very very tired. This thread was pretty fun!

 

Im curious for all those participating (or wanting to pass the time before wl starts moving). What would you guys do to improve rural medicine?

[hulkrules]

...so what's it looking like tomorrow the calling starts?

what does everyone think?

[danceprincess88]

Really? Whew, thanks for warning me! As a result of this, I will be dropping out tomorrow... I would offer you my spot in clerkship, but it sounds like your fears about this school becoming less "reknowned" would probably prevent you from taking it. Thanks for the tip though, you just saved me a few years of work.

 

Hey,

 

I was directing my reply to danceprincess, actually. Her implications that swomen applicants are inbred and unmotivated and would somehow damage the school were uncalled for and, I suspect, sour grapes.

 

Hey peeps,

 

I did add a disclaimer that what I said was controversial however there is merit in what I am saying and I will defend, though know that I am not as extremist as what I am arguing:

 

-Not all SWOMEN applicants are unmotivated (inbred refers not as a shot at rural people, but Western taking Western people or people from SWO hence being 'inbred') but there are plenty of SWOMEN applicants who only get an interview at Schulich because they are not high achievers and then get into Schulich. Few non-SWOMEN people get only an interview at Schulich, though the R cutoff at Queens may have changed this. The statistic about the small number of people from SWOMEN who turn down an offer of Schulich should explain this (no other offers). A school that takes applicants that no other school wants or even wants to interview, hmmm.... would you say that has a negative effect when lower achievers are crowding your classroom? Although right now I believe that Schulich has top notch education and students, I feel that continued pursuit of this SWOMEN initiative will lower the quality of the student in the future classrooms by taking students that no one else wants. Now I understand there are factors as to why these students were not as high achievers in the class room (SES, 1st generation university student etc.) however, end of the day, they were lower quality students. So 1/3 of the class was SWOMEN, thats not bad, however that number has gone up in each of the last 3 years, makes you wonder what the ceiling is? Are they going to be happiest when 50% of the classroom is SWOMEN with 50% (so 25% of the class) not getting an interview at any other medical school? That 50% of SWOMEN is just an imaginary number though I would be surprised if it wasn't that high.

 

Also bottom line, right now I would be cool with going Schulich, it has some great people in it, but if it keeps going in this direction (ie. progressively more bonus to SWOMEN) I think I would be happier sitting in a U of T classroom where the person sitting beside me was the best applicant (according to their ad comm who have no preference for geo location) for the position regardless of high school attended, whereas I would feel like I was sitting beside someone who caught a lucky break with where they went to high school in a Schulich classroom.

 

-The best way to improve physicians in rural regions is by doing what western already does: Rural discovery week and rural clerkship. That is how you introduce people to rural practice who might love it. I would bet that rural discovery week and rural clerkship added way more improvements on rural health than any SWOMEN initiative since the majority of people taking advantage of this are londoners.

 

So I keep my statement, if Western continues to let in progressively more students that no one else wants how does its reputation fare?

 

All the people that went to Western who now live in Kingston, they are going to look back and think, why would I donate money to my alma mater that thought I was great back then but would think twice before they admitted me now or wouldn't let my kids in based on the fact that they didn't go to high school in the area.

 

I believe that if this policy continues that the reputation of the school will not remain as prestigious as it is today. The best candidates for the job should get the position, if they are not, then rep goes down. Introducing rural health during the M.D. program is the way to go, because remember, even with the SWOMEN policy, 2/3rds of the class is still not from the area and they might as well try to show that majority how great rural practice can be and how needed they are in the SWO region.

 

Thanks for your time and I look forward to your thoughts.

[Purple Pride?]

i dont want to waste too much time replying to this last post here, but your argument is weak. All other schools in Canada, except 3 in Ontario, preferentially admit people from the immediate geographical region, as does every other med school around the world (unless theyre a money scam like Caribbean schools...). The 'lower quality of students' you predict will populate the school are in fact of the cohort (at worst) representing the other 3/4 students who are qualified but do not get admitted elsewhere. And not to piss on anyones egotistical parade here, the only reason there is such competition for med school spots in Canada is that there is so many applicants, not because youre required to be a genius to practice medicine. In all honesty most doctors are glorified technicians which as time progresses are becoming practicians of protocol, not human healing. Although it helps to not be an intellectual hermit

[lostintime]

Hey peeps,

 

I did add a disclaimer that what I said was controversial however there is merit in what I am saying and I will defend, though know that I am not as extremist as what I am arguing:

 

-Not all SWOMEN applicants are unmotivated (inbred refers not as a shot at rural people, but Western taking Western people or people from SWO hence being 'inbred') but there are plenty of SWOMEN applicants who only get an interview at Schulich because they are not high achievers and then get into Schulich. Few non-SWOMEN people get only an interview at Schulich, though the R cutoff at Queens may have changed this. The statistic about the small number of people from SWOMEN who turn down an offer of Schulich should explain this (no other offers). A school that takes applicants that no other school wants or even wants to interview, hmmm.... would you say that has a negative effect when lower achievers are crowding your classroom? Although right now I believe that Schulich has top notch education and students, I feel that continued pursuit of this SWOMEN initiative will lower the quality of the student in the future classrooms by taking students that no one else wants. Now I understand there are factors as to why these students were not as high achievers in the class room (SES, 1st generation university student etc.) however, end of the day, they were lower quality students. So 1/3 of the class was SWOMEN, thats not bad, however that number has gone up in each of the last 3 years, makes you wonder what the ceiling is? Are they going to be happiest when 50% of the classroom is SWOMEN with 50% (so 25% of the class) not getting an interview at any other medical school? That 50% of SWOMEN is just an imaginary number though I would be surprised if it wasn't that high.

 

Also bottom line, right now I would be cool with going Schulich, it has some great people in it, but if it keeps going in this direction (ie. progressively more bonus to SWOMEN) I think I would be happier sitting in a U of T classroom where the person sitting beside me was the best applicant (according to their ad comm who have no preference for geo location) for the position regardless of high school attended, whereas I would feel like I was sitting beside someone who caught a lucky break with where they went to high school in a Schulich classroom.

 

-The best way to improve physicians in rural regions is by doing what western already does: Rural discovery week and rural clerkship. That is how you introduce people to rural practice who might love it. I would bet that rural discovery week and rural clerkship added way more improvements on rural health than any SWOMEN initiative since the majority of people taking advantage of this are londoners.

 

So I keep my statement, if Western continues to let in progressively more students that no one else wants how does its reputation fare?

 

All the people that went to Western who now live in Kingston, they are going to look back and think, why would I donate money to my alma mater that thought I was great back then but would think twice before they admitted me now or wouldn't let my kids in based on the fact that they didn't go to high school in the area.

 

I believe that if this policy continues that the reputation of the school will not remain as prestigious as it is today. The best candidates for the job should get the position, if they are not, then rep goes down. Introducing rural health during the M.D. program is the way to go, because remember, even with the SWOMEN policy, 2/3rds of the class is still not from the area and they might as well try to show that majority how great rural practice can be and how needed they are in the SWO region.

 

Thanks for your time and I look forward to your thoughts.

 

 

Supposedly UT is the "first choice" school (general attitude I perceive from premeds I talk to and reputation wise...no basis for this attitude). Yet I know from personal experience, 4-5 people who ONLY got an acceptance at U of T and no interview at UWO/Queens. So what does that say? I mean, this type of thing happens at every school so I don't think any school really takes "leftover"/unwanted students.

[Alastriss]

i dont want to waste too much time replying to this last post here, but your argument is weak. All other schools in Canada, except 3 in Ontario, preferentially admit people from the immediate geographical region, as does every other med school around the world (unless theyre a money scam like Caribbean schools...). The 'lower quality of students' you predict will populate the school are in fact of the cohort (at worst) representing the other 3/4 students who are qualified but do not get admitted elsewhere. And not to piss on anyones egotistical parade here, the only reason there is such competition for med school spots in Canada is that there is so many applicants, not because youre required to be a genius to practice medicine. In all honesty most doctors are glorified technicians which as time progresses are becoming practicians of protocol, not human healing. Although it helps to not be an intellectual hermit

 

 

Danceprincess, ploughboy already foresaw that the decreased offer rejection was due to them only holding one. It is a good point regardless.

 

Sure, maybe a lot of swomen applicants won't have the ridiculous gpas of UT students or the ridiculous mcats of OOP UMan students, but that isn't to say that they are not academically adept to handle medicine. But don't listen to me, CaRMs stats for UWO are not hindered at all by accepting swomen applicants. I forget the exact details, but those who did their clinical years in windsor supposedly had a 100% match rate in CaRMs (was told this at my UWO interview)

 

 

 

Edit: I realize I quoted the wrong post

[Alastriss]

Supposedly UT is the "first choice" school (general attitude I perceive from premeds I talk to and reputation wise...no basis for this attitude). Yet I know from personal experience, 4-5 people who ONLY got an acceptance at U of T and no interview at UWO/Queens. So what does that say? I mean, this type of thing happens at every school so I don't think any school really takes "leftover"/unwanted students.

 

Not hard to imagine, most don't bother to get that 10 10 10 Q mcat. I know I wouldn't, if i had a really good gpa and strong ECs and research.

 

SWOMEN applicants are not necessarily leftovers/unwanted students, but UWO does want them because they believe that it will help service southwestern ON>

 

I think Danceprincess is just saying:

 

UWO's quick and dirty way to select for swomen applicants is questionable.

 

The focus on servicing SWO is not completely congruent with filling a class with the cream of the crop candidates - which is not entirely out of line to say, but that doesnt translate in any way that swomen applicants will not make great physicians.

 

 

 

I empathize to an extent danceprincess. It does suck to see you score more interviews than some 10 friends based on higher merit, and have them get into their only school (home province school) and you ending up on the waitlist. Hang in there, they should start calling soon!

 

 

Last point to consider: It is not just enough to introduce rural medicine during discovery week. You may really enjoy it, but you may not be ready to make the transition from an urban lifestyle to a rural lifestyle if you have been accustomed to the former. This is in fact one big problem that has been identfied. Being from the area will certainly affect a medical student's ultimate decision to go into rural medicine.

[Gob]

Last point to consider: It is not just enough to introduce rural medicine during discovery week. You may really enjoy it, but you may not be ready to make the transition from an urban lifestyle to a rural lifestyle if you have been accustomed to the former. This is in fact one big problem that has been identfied. Being from the area will certainly affect a medical student's ultimate decision to go into rural medicine.

 

We do a minimum of 4 weeks in clerkship in a rural setting.

[danceprincess88]

P.S. I have to commend everyone on this thread for such a high degree of maturity. The arguments I am making, I think when you look at them unbiased, someone may not agree with them (they are a bit controversial), but atleast everyone is understanding them. Rather than just writing them off, people are attempting to debate them. I enjoy people's rebuttals and difference of opinion without turning this thread into a shouting match. I would gladly have anyone in this thread as my physician.

[Alastriss]

We do a minimum of 4 weeks in clerkship in a rural setting.

 

Regardless, the study shows this. I don't see how 4 weeks is enough to trump 4-18 years (minimum of 4 for attending hs, and max of 18 because thats the age you graduate). If you are from the area you will be more inclined to ultimately return there.

[supafield]

P.S. I have to commend everyone on this thread for such a high degree of maturity. The arguments I am making, I think when you look at them unbiased, someone may not agree with them (they are a bit controversial), but atleast everyone is understanding them. Rather than just writing them off, people are attempting to debate them. I enjoy people's rebuttals and difference of opinion without turning this thread into a shouting match. I would gladly have anyone in this thread as my physician.

 

Well said, unlike some other threads that become boxing rings...

[ploughboy]

P.S. I have to commend everyone on this thread for such a high degree of maturity. The arguments I am making, I think when you look at them unbiased, someone may not agree with them (they are a bit controversial), but atleast everyone is understanding them. Rather than just writing them off, people are attempting to debate them. I enjoy people's rebuttals and difference of opinion without turning this thread into a shouting match. I would gladly have anyone in this thread as my physician.

 

Indeed. Kudos all.

 

I think I understand where you're coming from, dp88. I just happen to think that you're wrong!

 

One more point to add about the quality (or lack thereof) of Swomen applicants. The criteria for interview invitations for Swomen applicants differ in only one respect from those not lucky enough to have gone to highschool in the humidity capital of Ontario: Swomen applicants can get by with one or more 8's on their MCAT. But they need to make up for it in other sections ie they still need to get a total numeric score of 30 on their MCAT which puts them at least in the 74th percentile off all MCAT test-takers, just like all the other applicants. They also still need to meet the same GPA cut-off as other applicants.

 

Now you could justifiably say "but ploughboy, somebody with an 8 in BS might only be in the 25th percentile for that section". I can't argue with that. An 8 in BS isn't very competitive. But said hypothetical applicant would have had to make up for that 8 with an 11 in PS (80th percentile) and an 11 in VR (85th percentile) or a 12 in either PS or BS (90th or 95th percentile) and a 10 in the remaining section.

 

Long story short: Swomen applicants aren't retarded, but they may have different academic strengths than their peers.

 

Is having an 8 in BS going to make somebody a poor physician? I'd argue no, especially since not that long ago (< 10 years) having all 8's would probably get you interviews at most Canadian schools. I'm sure there are tonnes of attendings out there who only got 8's on their MCATs. Sucks to be applying now, when things are more competitive.

 

Now any post-interview advantage for Swomen applicants...I don't know anything about. I saw the stats that Alatriss (I think) posted and was a little gob-smacked by the percentage of Swomen applicants who got offers. Do they interview better than non-Swomeners? Do they get a post-interview bonus? Who knows...

 

 

All numbers from : http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/combined07.pdf

 

pb

 

 

Edit: or taking things to the extreme...a Swomen applicant could theoretically get an 8 in BS (25th percentile) and an 8 in PS (39th percentile). But (s)he would have to make up for it with a 14 in VR (99th percentile). That's really unbalanced, and anybody capable of getting 14+ in VR may not be entirely human, but the candidate is obviously very bright in one domain and should be interviewed on that basis.

 

Edit #2: Oops, forgot WS. You've got me there. A swomen applicant could get an interview while being in the 41st percentile (O) whereas a non-Swomen applicant needs to be in the 64th percentile (Q). Given how incredibly artificial and ritualized the MCAT WS is, I'm not convinced that somebody with an O is going to be a poorer physician than somebody with a Q.

 

Edit #3: Words can't express how glad I am that I never, ever have to write the MCAT again!