Applying To US DO Med Schools - FAQs, Guidance & Canadian Friendly Schools

[Cottoncandy6827]

You need COMLEX III and USMLE III to practice in the US. If your plan is to stay in Canada and not practice in the US, then yes, you can choose to not take the step 3. However, the entire series steps 1,2,3 has to be done within 7 years, or the whole thing expires and you have to start from scratch.

 

Scores depend on residency. A good score for FM is not a good score for dermatology. This info is easily googleable. NRMP releases a PDF each year, check out the 2011 edition.

 

I thought you had to do at least the COMPLEX series to graduate from DO schools?

[Mashmetoo]

I thought you had to do at least the COMPLEX series to graduate from DO schools?

 

COMLEX** You guys are going to tick off a lot of people at the AOA/ your school if you keep getting that name wrong

 

You need COMLEX steps I, II to graduate. You need COMLEX step III to practice as a DO in ~7-8 states (i.e., even if you had USMLE 1,2,3, you'd still need COMLEX step III to practice in those states).

 

But if you don't mind practicing in those states, I suppose not taking COMLEX III is ok.

[Mashmetoo]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT – QUEBEC FIRST ITERATION CARMS MATCH NOW OPEN TO US OSTEOPATHIC GRADUATES!!

Hi everyone, this is breaking announcement. As of August 29th 2012, CaRMs has officially updated that Canadian graduates of US Osteopathic Medical Schools are now eligible for the 1st iteration of the CaRMs match for all Quebec medical schools.

 

This breakthrough finally came through after months of dedication and hard work from the Canadian Osteopathic Association (COA), especially the president of the Ontario chapter of the COA. The COA and COMSA have been aware and in contact with the Quebec licensing authorities since early 2012. A verbal agreement was reached early in the year, but the official confirmation came today.

 

The COA and COMSA are working diligently on behalf of ALL Canadians, present and future, who are or will be studying at US Osteopathic medical schools to ensure that the pathway home is clear. This is the beginning of many more great things to come!!

 

As always, stay tuned!

[Patrick1234]

Does anyone know why a lot of US citizens are choosing the Ireland over DO path in their own country? As a Canadian, I am going the DO path but I was surprised when I asked a few friends who are all attending Ireland schools to ask their American classmates about the DO path since it didn't make sense if DOs are parallel that they would wanna be IMG instead of AMG and they don't have to worry about visa issues like Canadian DOs. I was surprised that most Americans at Irish schools now, (after being interviewed but rejected from MD schools) decided to attend Ireland as a second choice. Half of them never heard of DO (who grew up in New York and bigger non rural areas), which again was surprising since I thought DOs are relatively new to Canadians but more known to US...And the other half refused to consider DO as an option because they know more people not matching with the DO route than people not matching in Ireland.

 

I've check with friends at all 4 schools in Ireland, to this date, every single Canadian have matched at Ireland (100%) within the last few years (don't have the exact numbers but its for sure a lot higher than 80%) so where is the 40% match rate for IMGs coming from? it certainly is not from Ireland...

[Slashsev]

yes...americans are going IMG..just so they wont get a DO:confused: ahahahah..that makes alote of sense

 

they all prefer to land into visa problems and pick from a 2nd pool of applications, NOT get government funding/ scholorships... so that they wont hav DO in their name..it also makes sense that the application stats are MUCH lower in comparison to DO schools vs ireland (which take HS classes) or the islands

 

and nyc not knowing DO?!!i think that makes alote of sense too.

 

coz in NYC all they have is....NYCOM whcih is a big boy school and with

 

Touro...NY....all are in CENTRAL NYC!!!

 

and add a 1.5 hr drive you got PCOM and UMDNJ (another set of osteopathic big boy schools-- PCOM as #1)...

 

but no..going to ireland is a wiser choice...

 

its good to know that people havent done a 2 hr search to find a medical field that will grant them identical privaleges as an MD just so they can go to IMG

 

...at the same token alote would not get into a DO school

[Slashsev]

you also seen UBER gullible by believe those stats

 

 

here read this...and give me a 20 page break down on it!! notice also how it says 2011..so we can throw out the fact that its a study done in the 1980s!!

 

 

The Canadian International Medical Graduate Bottleneck: A New Problem for New Doctors

 

Abstract

Background: A growing population of Canadian students are travelling outside of Canada for medical training. The purpose of this study was to assess the opportunity for Canadians studying medicine abroad (CSAs) to secure post-graduate medical residency positions as International medical graduates (IMGs) in Canada.

Methods: Current statistics on IMG applicants into the Canadian Residency Matching Service (CaRMS) will be compared to the number of CSAs applying to return to Canada.

Results: In 2010, 75% (1232) of IMG applicants were unmatched following application to CaRMS, despite a doubling in positions reserved for IMGs from 2003. An estimated 3750 CSAs are currently attending over 55 medical schools globally; a six-fold increase since first reports in 2006. Between 2012 and 2014, it is estimated that 72.8% of CSAs will graduate, with 90.4% hoping to return to Canada for post-graduate residency training.

Discussion: The increasing population of CSAs poses a significant risk for future IMGs attempting to secure postgraduate training positions in Canada. From this perspective, we have coined the term ‘Canadian IMG Bottleneck’ – which describes the funnelling effect that has been created by the growing number of CSAs and the limited number of IMG residency positions available in Canada.

Correspondence: Evan Watts, Warwick Medical School, Coventry, UK; E-mail: E.Watts@warwick.ac.uk

Canadian Medical Education Journal 2011, 2(2)

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Introduction

Every year, thousands of students attending universities across Canada write the medical college application test, write essays, participate in lengthy online pre-interview assessments and pay application fees in the hope of securing a place at a medical school. There is, however, a significant mismatch between the number of applicants and medical school positions. In 2009, there were 10945 applicants for only 2740 positions at the 17 Canadian medical schools.1 The inevitable consequence of this mismatch is that most students, despite investing time, money and career aspirations, are frustrated in their attempts to become a medical doctor in Canada.

Many Canadian applicants have sought alternative routes to obtain their medical degrees. While some students may have opted to pursue their education overseas as an opportunity to experience a new country or culture, the most frequently cited reason, based on a recent survey of Canadians studying medicine abroad (CSAs) undertaken by the Canadian Residency Matching Service (CaRMS), was that students felt they would be unable to secure a place in a Canadian school. 2 Ireland, Australia, and the Caribbean are marketed as operating established medical schools with curricula that are comparable to those in North America. These schools regularly accept, and in some cases even cater towards, students from Canada. 2,3 In the same 2010 report by CaRMS, an estimated 3750 Canadians were found to be studying at 55 medical schools in 23 different countries.2 To place these numbers in perspective, this current estimate of 3750 CSAs is equivalent to one third of the 10518 Canadian students currently studying medicine in Canada.1

Three potential issues arising from this vast number of CSAs have been identified:

1. Is the Canadian healthcare system aware of the influx of students who intend to return to Canada as IMGs for postgraduate medical training?

2. As doctors have specialized skill sets, what will be the outcome for Canadian IMGs unable to match for postgraduate training in Canada?

3. Is there a need to monitor the number of Canadians travelling abroad for medical training?

The purpose of the present review was to identify the opportunity for CSAs to secure post-graduate medical residency positions as IMGs in Canada and, from this prospective, to coin the term ‘Canadian IMG Bottleneck’.

The influx of Canadian IMGs

The latest estimate of 3570 CSAs represents a six-fold increase since the medical community first focussed their attention on the number of CSAs in 2006.4 Even this marked increase in CSAs may be underestimating the total number. For example, no data were collected from the United Kingdom in the most recent survey completed by CaRMS. In a subsequent informal survey of the 33 medical schools in the United Kingdom, 13 schools responded and 137 CSAs were identified.14 While this represents an isolated example, it indicates that current estimates may not be fully identifying the extent of the issue.

Regardless of these estimates, it appears that the Canadian healthcare system does not have the capacity to accommodate the influx of students intending to return to Canada. Over the last five years, provincial governments have increased the number of entry level residency positions (R1) available for all IMGs. Working alongside CaRMS, the number of residency positions reserved for IMGs has increased from 197 in 2003 to 373 in 2010: an almost two-fold expansion.5 This response, however, has not been comparable to the growing number of CSAs. Given that over this period of time a six-fold increase in the number of CSAs was observed, the number of residency training positions seems to be insufficient to accommodate all the CSAs hoping to return to Canada for postgraduate training.2,4

A number of steps must be taken by CSAs prior to applying for post-graduate training (Figure 1). All Canadian IMGs must successfully pass the Medical Council of Canada Evaluating and Qualifying Examinations to be eligible to apply for residency positions in Canada. In exchange for residency training for those that match, five out of the eight provinces (Ontario, Manitoba, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and British Columbia) require IMGs to sign a

Canadian Medical Education Journal 2011, 2(2)

e88

return of service (ROS) agreement.6 An ROS agreement restricts the location in which IMGs can practice medicine following the completion of residency training.6 In Ontario, a standard five year ROS is required of all IMGs that completed their residency training in Ontario, regardless of the specialty of residency. The regulatory body of Canada has implemented these stipulations to resolve the problem of physician shortages, largely in underserviced areas.7

Figure 1. IMG Residency Application Pathway

Outcomes for unmatched CSAs

In 2010, 1497 IMGs applied for the first year of their postgraduate medical training (R-1).8 According to this report, 1124 (75%) IMGs were unmatched. While these results did not distinguish between Canadian and non-Canadian IMG applicants, they offered a unique look into the problem. For example, between the years 2007 to 2010, the number of ‘new graduate’ applicants registered with CaRMS increased from 99 to 215.8-11 Given that 90.3% of the currently estimated 3750 CSAs intend to return to Canada for residency training, it can be predicted that the number of new IMG applicants will continue to rise. Moreover, this may also increase the number of IMGs that are unsuccessful in previous years and are reapplying to CARMS. According to CARMS data, ‘previous graduate’ IMGs represent the largest population of applications to CARMS. For example, from 2008 to 2010 the number of ‘previous graduate’ IMGs increased from 1214 to 1338.9-11 With a rise in the number ‘new graduate’ applicants, those IMGs that are unsuccessful, and still intended to return to Canada, may further increase this cohort of ‘previous graduate’ IMGs. Therefore, the opportunity for IMGs to secure a residency position in Canada may prove to be much more difficult in the near future.

Canadian IMGs unable to obtain a residency training position in Canada have few options. One potential route into Canadian medical practice is to seek postgraduate training in the United States. It is unclear how many Canadian IMGs have successfully used this strategy or how many continue practicing medicine within the US. United States IMG postgraduate matching data show that, last year, 7246 non-US IMGs applied for postgraduate residency training and, of these, 39.8% matched to a residency training program.12 When these statistics are compared to the 25% match rate for IMGs seeking Canadian residency training, it appears that neither route offers a positive outlook for Canadian IMGs hoping to secure postgraduate training.8 Furthermore, between 2003 and 2010, the percentage of non-US IMGs that matched to US residency training programs decreased by 15.9%.12 If the trend continues, this alternative route to postgraduate medical training might also succumb to a bottleneck similar to that occurring within Canada.

A second possibility for unmatched Canadian IMGs is to apply for residency training in the countries where they studied medicine. However, a number of potential barriers exist. Many medical schools in the Caribbean do not have postgraduate clinical residency programs and many Canadian IMGs are denied the option of applying for residency where they were trained.2 Similarly, in countries such as Australia and Ireland, residency positions are prioritized by a national selection process, and with recent shortages in internship placements, many Canadian IMGs may be turned away.2,13

The Canadian response

At present, the decision to pursue a medical education abroad is one that rests with the

Canadian Medical Education Journal 2011, 2(2)

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individual applicants. There is no organization with the power to regulate or accurately monitor the number of CSAs leaving Canada. Therefore, CSAs represent an unregulated, free market of consumers of medical education, which makes it difficult to predict the number of CSAs applying to return for postgraduate training in Canada. 2

Due to the uncertainty inherent in this process, many CSAs are faced with the hardship of financial strains without strong job prospects. In the CaRMS CSA 2010 report, 44% of CSAs reported that their total funding to attend medical school was from a bank loan and 69% were part-funded by Canadian banks.2 Given that the average debt for an IMG is approximately $160,000CAD, this raises the possibility of financial hardship for many of Canada’s highly educated citizens.2 These reports on postgraduate applications have identified important trends with respect to the growing number of CSAs. They suggest a number of CSAs that hope to return to Canada for postgraduate training may be unsuccessful. This raises the possibility of a bottleneck which threatens to overwhelm the IMG system and leave newly qualified Canadian doctors unemployed.

At the crux of this mismatch is an increasing population of Canadian students seeking alternative routes to obtain medical training. Each year, as the bottleneck goes unreported, more aspiring Canadian students will continue to pursue training overseas. In the absence of information about this worsening situation, however, such students may be pursuing a dream that the Canadian healthcare system is unable to support. It is important that measures are taken to address this problem before the bottleneck worsens.

Is there a place for monitoring CSA’s?

While the number of residency positions for IMGs continues to increase, the rising number of CSAs has been much more substantial. Without an organization to monitor and regulate the number of CSAs, the current approach to increase residency numbers might risk calling for a bucket instead of repairing the leak.

As international medicine is a free market for medical training, it would be unethical to establish a regulatory body to inhibit Canadians from studying abroad. A registry to monitor the number

[Slashsev]

In 2010, 1497 IMGs applied for the first year of their postgraduate medical training (R-1).8 According to this report, 1124 (75%) IMGs were unmatched. While these results did not distinguish between Canadian and non-Canadian IMG applicants, they offered a unique look into the problem. For example, between the years 2007 to 2010, the number of ‘new graduate’ applicants registered with CaRMS increased from 99 to 215.8-11 Given that 90.3% of the currently estimated 3750 CSAs intend to return to Canada for residency training, it can be predicted that the number of

 

 

/...the number of spots also increase by 2 fold!!! yet not enough

 

alote of these provinces dont even consider non Visa students

so we can assume that alote are canadian IMGs...that are not exposed to the MD or DO path

[Patrick1234]

Hey

 

I turned down Ireland in favor of DO so I did do my research. All I was curious and was wondering if people could shed light on my questions was why a lot of Americans would choose IMG over DO when US CITIZENS don't have to worry about visa issues when they apply for AOA or MD residencies...that just didn't make sense for me...

 

And I've talked to some of them, I'm not saying all of them never heard of DO but half of them really did ask what it was and most of these people are people who grew up in big cities. And from a personal level, I do know 10-15 friends of mine who went to Ireland who didn't have any trouble getting residencies. I'm just trying to understand both sides of the argument that's all since I already know the advantages of DO, I wanted to understand why others would not choose it.

[Slashsev]

lack of research...#1...#2 lack of marks

 

and #3 lack of knowledge in the field

 

the residency friends...what year was this? 10 years ago?? times have changed

 

there is no comparision..IMG positions are dead

 

 

DO> img

 

...ireland has poor training for US system and lacks sufficent resideny spots!! lack of visa means hell...the school system cannot handle the # of students they have..they just canot..canadian can only hold so many students

while the rest do audition years to take a foot in or give up and go to the US

 

of all the systems!!

 

i think Ireland is the WORST!! by FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

im more supportive of the island schools vs ireland

 

that is a death spiral

[Slashsev]

the ONLYYY country that can support residency "overfloats" is the USA!! ONLYYY COUNTRY...

 

the garbage picking of canada mean nothing

 

if ur not ready to go to USA ur done!!

 

DOs have preferential treatment vs IMGs

 

no MD in the US will look at an ireland grad vs a DO if marks are the same

..usmle..

 

ireland does not train you

 

DOs also have their own residency...(but u gotto work out visa kinks) and u have dual..DO/MD residencies

 

 

it jus doesnt make sense...what they say is balony!

 

if u want i will wrestle them for u..lol

[Patrick1234]

no my friends are recent grads, mostly my age.

 

but yea, we'll see in 5 years time what the situation for IMGs are.

[Slashsev]

are their parents doctors??

 

a residency connection is a simple phone callaway

[Mashmetoo]

This just in:

 

Michigan State University - DO class of 2016, the position of class president has been won by a Canadian student from the Canadian initiative!

 

I'm not aware of any bonafide Canadians (non-dual citizens) that is class president of any US med schools. Buuuut, please let me know if there are!

 

[blizzah]

This just in:

 

Michigan State University - DO class of 2016, the position of class president has been won by a Canadian student from the Canadian initiative!

 

I'm not aware of any bonafide Canadians (non-dual citizens) that is class president of any US med schools. Buuuut, please let me know if there are!

 

 

UK class president from last year was Canadian. One of my friends (Canadian) is running right now at my school.

[Patrick1234]

I heard they are implementing OSCE exam past 2014 for Canada, do we have to write that in addition to the 9 exams?

[Mashmetoo]

I heard they are implementing OSCE exam past 2014 for Canada, do we have to write that in addition to the 9 exams?

 

The OSCE in the MCCQE part 2?

[Patrick1234]

I'm not sure the name but memorial announced that imgs would have to write it but in exchange for more seats

[Mashmetoo]

I'm not sure the name but memorial announced that imgs would have to write it but in exchange for more seats

 

1) we are not IMGs

2) we don't have access to memorial

 

So don't worry about it.

[Strategy99]

Lots of good info here, but I still need to know:

 

What is the likelihood of a US DO matching into a Canadian residency program?

 

Are they treated as AMG and CMG?

 

What pool are they placed in?

[Mashmetoo]

Lots of good info here, but I still need to know:

 

What is the likelihood of a US DO matching into a Canadian residency program?

 

Are they treated as AMG and CMG?

 

What pool are they placed in?

 

For those who still hasn't figured it out yet, the US DO route is the backdoor back into Canada without ROS requirements.

 

Treated as AMG/CMG by the provinces, IMGS by the MCC.

 

For pool placement, search CaRMs

[Strategy99]

For those who still hasn't figured it out yet, the US DO route is the backdoor back into Canada without ROS requirements.

 

Treated as AMG/CMG by the provinces, IMGS by the MCC.

 

For pool placement, search CaRMs

 

Thanks but I'm still confused (newbie here, sorry). If US DO are treated as AMG/CMG when applying for Canadian residencies, then that means they are put into the AMG/CMG pool, correct?

 

My main question is: is it just as easy to match into a Canadian residency for a US DO as it is for US MD? I want to make sure it is not hard to come back to Canada.

[Mashmetoo]

Thanks but I'm still confused (newbie here, sorry). If US DO are treated as AMG/CMG when applying for Canadian residencies, then that means they are put into the AMG/CMG pool, correct?

 

My main question is: is it just as easy to match into a Canadian residency for a US DO as it is for US MD? I want to make sure it is not hard to come back to Canada.

 

CMG first iteration in ON, QC, BC

IMG 2nd iteration in Alberta and also have to be Alberta resident.

 

I wouldn't say its just as easy to come back as a US MD just because we don't have access to all of Canada. But much easier than the IMGs.

[Mashmetoo]

So, COMSA has made a poll regarding what premed-DOs, current Canadian DO students think should be the next main focus of advocacy, the poll is now live at http://www.studentdo.ca/comso/

 

The options are:

 

Advocate for CaRMs 1st iteration rights for DOs

 

Have AOA/AACOMAS visit Canadian Universities to talk about Osteopathic medical schools

 

Advocate for more US DO schools to accept Canadians

 

Advocate for the abolition of the MCCEE requirement for USDOs

 

Advocate for the recognition of AOA residencies in Canada

 

Figure out a reliable way to distinguish US trained DO doctors from Canadian/International DO osteopaths in Canada

 

Approach recent Canadian graduates of US DO schools to join COMSA/COA

 

Pick one, and choose wisely!!

[brolias]

How about these goals:

 

"Advocate for the removal of pseudoscience from the curriculum"

 

"Advocate for the right of DOs to be able to legally use the title MD in Canada"

[Mashmetoo]

How about these goals:

 

"Advocate for the removal of pseudoscience from the curriculum"

 

"Advocate for the right of DOs to be able to legally use the title MD in Canada"

 

lol, you'd have to have a convincing argument that it is "pseudoscience"

 

It would be easier for you to go to a MD school to be called a MD.