Terrorists caught across Ottawa, London...one's a Doctor.

[axel]

Hitler was born to a catholic family, but it's said he became athiest. Then nobody knows what he was. Some historians that hitler only used religion for political purposes.

[Wayward son]

For goodness sakes, are you telling me all the names of the people who were imprisoned in Dachau for being priests and Christians are fakes?

 

Yes.....um I mean no....Is that a serious question?

 

Just because Hitler was a catholic (and was never excommunicated) and just because the nazi's were christians does not mean that no priests would ever be imprisioned by them.

 

Hitler was a vegetarian, yet the Nazi's also persecuted vegetarian organizations and undoubtably imprisioned some vegetarians for the simple reason that power and the maintainance of that power trumps other beliefs.

[Wayward son]

Hitler was born to a catholic family, but it's said he became athiest.

 

Name a serious historian who states that Hitler was an atheist.

[sfinch]

Just want to clarify one thing (and I lived in Germany for the past four years, so received quite an education in German history): the Nazis were NOT Christian. They even imprisoned priests for goodness sakes! I visited Dachau and saw records of the number of priests and other religious individuals who were sent to the concentration camps.

 

So please do not say it was Christians who killed the Jews during the holocaust. The Nazis were not Christian at all. Their only "religion" was the state and their political party.

 

You know what is most shocking about you?!? You have no problem demonizing moslems (and for the way Saudis behave, I do agree with you), but you somehow are apologetic for the Germans when they mass murdered 6 million jews.

 

Seriously, you may have topped everyone on this board for insensitivity. You cannot excuse the germans 'economic' problems for mass murdering jews. That is a thoroughly disgusting sentiment.

[medguy5367]

I'm not naive, but I've lived in Germany for the past four years, and visited Dachau. I saw the names of all the Christian victims of the Nazis. I saw the names of the priests sent to concentration camps for being Christian.

 

The Nazis were definitely not Christian.

 

This is a logical fallacy.

 

"The Nazis killed or imprisoned other Christians, therefore, they themselves could not be Christian."

[axel]

You know what is most shocking about you?!? You have no problem demonizing moslems (and for the way Saudis behave, I do agree with you), but you somehow are apologetic for the Germans when they mass murdered 6 million jews.

 

Seriously, you may have topped everyone on this board for insensitivity. You cannot excuse the germans 'economic' problems for mass murdering jews. That is a thoroughly disgusting sentiment.

 

wow dude, this is weak.

 

caylynn neither demonized muslims nor was apologetic towards germans for mass murdering jews. What the hell is this?

 

She only spoke her experiences of saudi arabia and spoke of first hand evidence she saw which leads her to believe nazis probably weren't christian.

 

How can you even say that? You're like premed101's Glenn Beck.

 

First hand quotes from hitler (the negative ones about christianity, he's also said some positive stuff): http://www.doxa.ws/social/Hitler.html

[Caylynn]

You know what is most shocking about you?!? You have no problem demonizing moslems (and for the way Saudis behave, I do agree with you), but you somehow are apologetic for the Germans when they mass murdered 6 million jews.

 

Seriously, you may have topped everyone on this board for insensitivity. You cannot excuse the germans 'economic' problems for mass murdering jews. That is a thoroughly disgusting sentiment.

 

I'm not excusing them - I'm saying the average German had no idea that Jews were being killed - they simply thought their businesses were being closed down and they were being deported.

 

You seem to be purposefully twisting my words. I'm simply saying that there are reasons why the Nazis were able to get the German people to believe that they were being threatened. I'm not excusing the behaviour of those in power at all. I'm saying that for the average German, who had absolutely no power, and had no knowledge of what was really going on, there were reasons why the Nazis were able to assume power so easily.

 

Have you personally talked to any WWII German veterans? I have, and they honestly were just following orders and had no idea what their government was doing. So no, I don't blame those foot soldiers.

 

I DO blame the Nazis - those who were in power, the SS, and all those involved in the concentration camps. But the average soldier, fighting on the various fronts, knew absolutely nothing about the extermination of the Jews.

 

The holocaust was absolutely horrible. I don't excuse that at all. I've visited Dachau, and seen first hand that absolutely horrible, terrible place. The holocaust was a travesty. BUT I don't blame the German foot soldier, who was fighting in the war, for the holocaust. I blame those in power, the government, and those who were actually stationed and working at the concentration camps.

 

You don't seem to realize that there is a HUGE difference between not blaming the "little guy" who had NO idea what was going on, and absolutely hating and being disgusted by what happened during the holocaust. As I said, I don't blame the average German who had NO idea what was going on. I DO blame whose in power, and those who very well knew what was happening.

 

I have also visited Saudi Arabia, as I mentioned, several times, when my father was working there. And the way that they treat women, all in the name of Islam, is absolutely horrible. I don't excuse their behaviour either.

[Chaplin]

Caylynn. Which years did you visit Saudi Arabia in and which regions did you go to?

[Wayward son]

First hand quotes from hitler (the negative ones about christianity, he's also said some positive stuff): http://www.doxa.ws/social/Hitler.html

 

They all come from "table talk" so they are not first hand quotes. First they were recorded by various people, some afterwards, who were at the table with Hitler. Then they were translated into French and that translation was then translated into english. Kershaw doubts many of the quotes are accurate and Carrier considers the french translation (and therefore the english translation) to be inaccurate and purposefully manipulated.

 

However, even if Hitler had anti-christian or anti-church sentiments in private his public statements were the only ones that the vast majority of nazis would have known and followed and thereby represented the nazi position and ideology.

[future_doc]

I'm not excusing them - I'm saying the average German had no idea that Jews were being killed - they simply thought their businesses were being closed down and they were being deported.

 

You seem to be purposefully twisting my words. I'm simply saying that there are reasons why the Nazis were able to get the German people to believe that they were being threatened. I'm not excusing the behaviour of those in power at all. I'm saying that for the average German, who had absolutely no power, and had no knowledge of what was really going on, there were reasons why the Nazis were able to assume power so easily.

 

Have you personally talked to any WWII German veterans? I have, and they honestly were just following orders and had no idea what their government was doing. So no, I don't blame those foot soldiers.

 

I DO blame the Nazis - those who were in power, the SS, and all those involved in the concentration camps. But the average soldier, fighting on the various fronts, knew absolutely nothing about the extermination of the Jews.

 

The holocaust was absolutely horrible. I don't excuse that at all. I've visited Dachau, and seen first hand that absolutely horrible, terrible place. The holocaust was a travesty. BUT I don't blame the German foot soldier, who was fighting in the war, for the holocaust. I blame those in power, the government, and those who were actually stationed and working at the concentration camps.

 

You don't seem to realize that there is a HUGE difference between not blaming the "little guy" who had NO idea what was going on, and absolutely hating and being disgusted by what happened during the holocaust. As I said, I don't blame the average German who had NO idea what was going on. I DO blame whose in power, and those who very well knew what was happening.

 

I have also visited Saudi Arabia, as I mentioned, several times, when my father was working there. And the way that they treat women, all in the name of Islam, is absolutely horrible. I don't excuse their behaviour either.

 

What planet are you living on?

[Caylynn]

Caylynn. Which years did you visit Saudi Arabia in and which regions did you go to?

 

I only visited Jeddah - three times. That's where my father was stationed. So that's the only place we were allowed to visit, since we were non-Muslim and were only allowed into the country because my father was working there through the UN/ICAO.

 

We were there in 1991 (just after the first Gulf war had ended), 1992 and 1993.

[Caylynn]

What planet are you living on?

 

???

 

Maybe I have a different view of things, because I've actually lived in Germany for the past four years, been exposed to German radio, TV, news, history, etc., and actually spoken to German WWII veterans. I believe these men when they say that they had no idea what was going on. You would not believe how horrible they feel for what their country did. But they had no idea it was going on. If you could see the tears in these elderly men's eyes, and hear them speaking, you would not doubt what they say.

 

Maybe the German history I've been reading, seeing and listening too is radically different from the English-speaking world's version of things, but the Germans truly feel absolutely horrible that the holocaust happened, and most of them had no idea it was going on.

 

Just to make it clear: I am not excusing the holocaust. It was absolutely horrid and should never have happened. It was a tragedy on the largest scale possible. I was crying when I visited Dachau. The scale of human tragedy there is just unbelievable. I don't know how else I can put it: the holocaust was absolutely horrible, tragic, terrible. The Nazis were evil incarnate for doing that to the Jews and the others who were in the concentration camps (homosexuals, priests, political activists, etc.)

 

But the typical German soldier had no idea what was going on. He was just following orders. He, I don't blame.

[axel]

I don't know if I fully support not blaming 'the foot soldier'. They didn't have much choice and if they were to disobey, they'd probably face some severe punishment, so there's some leeway for not blaming them as much as higher nazis. But they have some blame to share.

I agree with everything else caylynn said.

[medguy5367]

But the typical German soldier had no idea what was going on. He was just following orders. He, I don't blame.

 

 

Orders like rounding up and killing Jews, you mean?

[future_doc]

Caylynn, with respect I tell you that you are in denial, you were not there, nor I; and you accept at face value what you hear. BTW, also blameworthy are Canada, USA, UK amongst other democratic countries who played the gasme of plausible deniability, not only did they first suspect anf then know what was going on, but they wanted it to happen. Rwanda, the world let it all happen, Cambodia, nobody cares, crocodile tears. And the world allows Sudan, the normal mass rapes in D.R.C. and so forth. Nobody really cares.

[Caylynn]

Orders like rounding up and killing Jews, you mean?

 

*sigh* The average foot solider in the German army, who was out fighting, was not rounding up and killing Jews.

 

I'm talking about the young men who were fighting, for instance, in France. They knew absolutely nothing about what was happening in the concentration camps. They had no idea that the Jews were being killed. They were certainly not rounding up and killing Jews.

 

The holocaust was horrible. It should never have happened. But not every German is guilty of the holocaust, although having lived in Germany for four years, I can tell you that they feel huge amounts of guilt, even though many Germans had no idea what was going on.

[Chaplin]

I only visited Jeddah - three times. That's where my father was stationed. So that's the only place we were allowed to visit, since we were non-Muslim and were only allowed into the country because my father was working there through the UN/ICAO.

 

We were there in 1991 (just after the first Gulf war had ended), 1992 and 1993.

 

You might have witnessed cruel treatment of women there. However this is not to say every treatment done everywhere is horrible.There are many really strict rights in Saudi Arabia for womens defence too, and now there are so many non muslims there, Dammam a big industrial city is majority americans. My mother is a Doctor, and she worked in Mecca from 1985- 1995 and with her were many Saudi and other Female doctors. She also saw male patients. Some things are horrible yes. The fact that women trafacking occurs in Saudi arabia for instance.

 

However the thing about marrying someone who you have never seen is cultural too. Ever heard of "Arranged marriage". Thats is what it is. It happens in Many many other countries, not only SA. Hindu culture goes as far as the Girl's family pays a certain amount to the girl and she cannot hold any claim over her fathers property after that.

 

Visit Kuwait, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Pakistan, Turkey, even SA now and many other Muslim countries. Women have freedom to do whatever they want. They hold jobs, Contest in elections, Vote. Have right of ownership, property, everything. Hell you have no idea how much freedom women have and how many women drive there, and they are quite rude too. I got punched in the face by one in Kuwait just cause I braked in front of her car and the cops ddnt register the claim because they thought it was amusing.

[future_doc]

The footsoldiers in Warsaw did not know what they were doing, nor the footsoldiers in Russia and everywhere else. You have a lot to learn. When they were put into cattle cars everywhere, it was not the Colonels forcing them into the cattlecars to their deaths. Yyou are dreaming in technicolour and deluding yourself from truth. A family member of mine was ripped apart to death by footsoldiers who set their attack dogs on him for sport, they had no orders to do so. The attitude permeated everywhere, especially to the footsoldiers. The footsoldiers who got Anna Frank and her family had no idea what they were doing, they were simply simple minded individuals who did not have a clue?

[axel]

 

We went from discussing how the quran instigates negativity and intolerance to arguing whether to blame nazi foot soldiers.

[Tango Charlie]

Orders like rounding up and killing Jews, you mean?

 

The Wehrmacht was generally too busy waging war to be bothered with stuff like this. It was typically Einsatzgruppen units, which were part of the SS, that did the rounding up and killing of people. In cases where SS presence didn't exist, like North Africa, the orders to kill Jews were generally ignored. As to whether they can be blamed for their actions, as mentioned they were ignorant of the extent of the atrocities, especially the Holocaust. Disobeying military orders under the Third Reich also did not tend to lead to a long and fruitful life for yourself or your family. It's tough to judge these people when we've never been in a situation like that. Certainly any of them who killed civilians were in the wrong, but then, it's hardly as if one side had a monopoly over that. What the Russians did to Germans in Berlin after the Red Army arrived there was disgusting, for instance. Maybe not quite as bad as the Rape of Nanking, but close. The bombing of Dresden was also horrific. As was the atomic bombs detonated over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Etc etc. The war was filled with senseless murder, rape and bloodshed on both side. It's tough to absolve any side of guilt in all of it. I guess Canada came out looking pretty good, but then we hardly played a role so who'd be surprised.

 

Also, Hitler was most definitely not an atheist. Stalin was an atheist, although he capitalized upon the credulity of Russians instilled in them by years of being told by the Russian Orthodox church that the Czar was next to divine. So he was able to develop a very strong cult of personality, replete with phony scientific miracles supposedly performed by his regime and everything. But, getting back to it, Hitler held Christian beliefs melded with Aryan race myth and Nordic paganism. Most of the SS were also confessing Roman Catholics, and the Pope said prayers for Hitler every year on his birthday. The only Nazi ever excommunicated by the Church for their actions was Joseph Goebbels, and it was because he married a protestant.

[bpp]

Also, Hitler was most definitely not an atheist. Stalin was an atheist, although he capitalized upon the credulity of Russians instilled in them by years of being told by the Russian Orthodox church that the Czar was next to divine. So he was able to develop a very strong cult of personality, replete with phony scientific miracles supposedly performed by his regime and everything. But, getting back to it, Hitler held Christian beliefs melded with Aryan race myth and Nordic paganism. Most of the SS were also confessing Roman Catholics, and the Pope said prayers for Hitler every year on his birthday. The only Nazi ever excommunicated by the Church for their actions was Joseph Goebbels, and it was because he married a protestant.

 

i think you were referring to the claims that hitler and the nazis had no religious affiliation, but just because someone says they are a certain religion does not mean religion was a major motivation. it also does not mean that their actions are consistent with their religion's teachings, which relates back to the original subject of this thread. on a somewhat insignificant note, i really doubt that there are statistics supporting the claim that most ss were "confessing roman catholics".

[axel]

It's quite clear hitler actually DESPISED christianity.

It's also quite clear he used it for political purposes to get people on his side.

 

Just read a few paragraphs... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_views (it's very well cited because he's probably one of the most researched figures and wiki mods hound that page)

[Tango Charlie]

Hah, that's neat, he was a bigger fan of Islam than Christianity due to Islam's significant association with military conquest earlier in its history. That I did not know.

 

Either way, he wasn't an atheist, not that it would mean anything in particular if he were.

 

i think you were referring to the claims that hitler and the nazis had no religious affiliation, but just because someone says they are a certain religion does not mean religion was a major motivation. it also does not mean that their actions are consistent with their religion's teachings, which relates back to the original subject of this thread. on a somewhat insignificant note, i really doubt that there are statistics supporting the claim that most ss were "confessing roman catholics".

 

I'm not sure where you saw me say that I felt the strange religious beliefs that Nazis tended toward was the source for their actions, but wherever it was I clearly misspoke, as that isn't the case at all and I can scarcely imagine what must have overtaken me when I explicitly stated that the Nazis did what they did because of their religious beliefs.

 

As for the strength of Catholicism within the ranks of the SS, I can't recall which book I read it in and a quick Google search isn't turning up anything decisive, so I'll accept that it's open to question for the time being.

[sfinch]

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." Hitler

 

Directly from the wikipedia page.

 

He always described himself with christianity, was baptised, and was never excommicated. He WAS a christian because he identified as one, and tried to use it to justify war and anti-semitism. He was against several 'peaceful' overtures some of the church structures believed in.

 

He was as christian and any arab terrorist is moslem. Several of the past palestinians terrorists are in fact non practicing moslems or christians. The all get labelled as moslem.

 

Hitler was a christian, as virtually his entire SS. That is a fact.

[axel]

I know this is a cheap remark, but I'm not surrrrprised that hitler was interested in islam.

 

I'm surprised hitler wasn't interested in hinduism, after all that was the religion of the pure blue-eyed blonde-haired germanic race... hitler is a hoot..

 

 

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." Hitler

 

Directly from the wikipedia page.

 

He always described himself with christianity, was baptised, and was never excommicated. He WAS a christian because he identified as one, and tried to use it to justify war and anti-semitism. He was against several 'peaceful' overtures some of the church structures believed in.

 

He was as christian and any arab terrorist is moslem. Several of the past palestinians terrorists are in fact non practicing moslems or christians. The all get labelled as moslem.

 

Hitler was a christian, as virtually his entire SS. That is a fact.

 

There needs to a be rule to ban people who pass a bull**** threshold...

You seemingly twist and manipulate every piece of information... and this is in addition to your made up statistics sometimes.

 

From article:

"His private statements, as reported by his intimates, show Hitler as critical of traditional Christianity, considering it a religion fit only for slaves; he admired the power of Rome but had severe hostility towards its teaching."

 

"In the political relations with the churches in Germany however, Hitler readily adopted a strategy "that suited his immediate political purposes".[319] Hitler had a general plan, even before the rise of the Nazis to power, to destroy Christianity within the Reich.[322][323][324] The leader of the Hitler Youth stated "the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement" from the start, but "considerations of expedience made it impossible" publicly to express this extreme position.[322] His intention was to wait until the war was over to destroy the influence of Christianity.[317]"

 

"Hitler once stated, "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."[329]"