Backup to Med School

[Cerena]

I think pharmacy is a good back up. The relative pay:work ratio is much higher than that of MDs, with pharmacists starting off around $40/hr. Plus, I hear some schools don't even require the PCAT, making it that much easier to get accepted.

 

Which schools don't require the PCAT? sorry I thought they all did?

[Curi0user]

I don't have one and nothing else compares to med.

[bilirubin3]

My mantra: "Med School or die tryin' "

[Cerena]

Yup I don't have a backup either. Have things to do in the meantime I enjoy but med is it for me.

[aaronjw]

I don't have one and nothing else compares to med.

 

how do you know nothing else compares to meds?

[medigeek]

I think pharmacy is a good back up. The relative pay:work ratio is much higher than that of MDs, with pharmacists starting off around $40/hr. Plus, I hear some schools don't even require the PCAT, making it that much easier to get accepted.

 

Hope you dont plan on working anywhere in the toronto/gta though.

[Robin Hood]

For me, it's optometry. The problem is that it will be really hard switching from optometry to medicine.

[charmer08]

Which schools don't require the PCAT? sorry I thought they all did?

 

uofa, memorial, waterloo... im pretty sure the quebec schools don't require it either if there are any

[apache]

in the states it's quite a bit different, because of the number of the number of schools offering Psych D. degrees at for profit institutions. As well, you may be confusing counselling psychology, which someone can enter with the ambitions of practicing on more clinical populations, with clinical psychology, which addresses a more narrow and intrusive form of pathology (there is a huge divergence in admission criteria, the grades you listed can sneak you into a poorer counselling program, where a 3.5-3.7 is a competitive gpa, in contrast to clinical programs). In rare circumstances people can get admitted by who they know (My IMG neighbour is friends with someone who matched into ophthalmology post 2nd match because she was getting a phd in vision related research and her prof made a call to fill a spot that was vacant for some unusual reason or another), but in the majority of circumstances, this is not the case.

 

 

With reference to law school, Osgoode is a school that now looks at a number of intangibles as well as academic criteria, which has drastically lowered the average gpa (although i would suspect that there isn't a natural gausian distribution, but rather a left skewed distribution, which gives the impression of having a lower average admitted gpa... there is also a possibility of a bimodal distribution (non classical - higher clustering towards the higher of the delineable distributions) with the lower distribution consisting of people with remarkable life experiences. because the assessment is extremely holistic and subjective, i would suspect that you may have a gutshot chance (which would be quite random) with a lower gpa, but would be much more assured a chance with a sky high gpa

 

if you want the most objective stat showing difficulty i would just look at the ratio applied to that admitted, which also has all kinds of flaws (only people with a realistic shot will apply to u of t, meaning they're percentage admitted applicants will be artificially inflated, etc.)

 

in the end, the point is, that the latent cloudiness of law admissions (exceptional circumstances cases, a defined category, for example make the nature of objectively evaluating these schools more difficult - since people with 3.0 gpa's but who have beaten cancer while raising children may be admitted because the school is looking for a class with a broad scope of experience). on the contrary, in medical admissions, i have a friend who was admitted outright with a 2.8 gpa because of her ancestry, yet she's not counted in the statistics of the general admitted population.

 

in the end, the whole process of evaluating the difficulty of admissions requires a much more rigorous examination of the relevant statistics and procedures, which is not available because no one has much of the detailed information necessary to make (the numerous individualized) absolute statements or conclusions we're trying to.

All of this is false. There are tons of people in clinical psych with B+ GPA's and GRE scores in the 50th percentile. Some dummy from one of my labs got in with BELOW 50th percentile GRE's and a terrible GPA last year just because our prof made a phone call and asked the other prof to accept this student. It's more about who you know than what your stats are.

 

You are mistaken with law stats as well. I'm applying to law school as my backup, so I've done quite a bit of research on this. Osgoode is not hard to get into at all- you need like a 3.6-3.7 GPA in your BEST TWO years and an LSAT in the 80-85th percentile. For U of T, which is considered the hardest school to gain acceptance to in Canada, the average accepted applicant has a 3.8 GPA in their best three years and a 90th percentile LSAT. Oh, and U of T doesn't even look at reference letters. This is why tons of pre-meds have law as a backup- even U of T law is easier to get into than med.

[apache]

this is bang on, pharmacy is becoming an extremely saturated profession in urban areas (i know over 7 pharmacists), my friend is moving from cranbrook to vancouver and taking a 10 dollar pay cut as well as having to go back to being a float (covering people's vacations all over the city etc.). pharmacy can be really good, but it's very location dependent.

 

i will agree though, that the work to pay ratio is fantastic, nurses max out where pharmacists start, doing relatively easier work, however, nurses have a public union and a fairly stable salary, whereas pharmacy is subject the wave of supply and demand, as well as changes in policy (giving pharmacy techs more privileges in alberta for example)

 

in the end, it really depends on the kind of life you want to live and whether the financial tradeoff for living in a big city is worth it (my other friend (who's staying in cranbrook) in cranbrook is the manager of the pharmacy 1 year out of school, in vancouver he would never have the opportunity, but he likes the autonomy and smaller town living, so it works for him

 

Hope you dont plan on working anywhere in the toronto/gta though.

[apache]

you know how it is when you're 18/19 (this isn't meant to be condescending or offensive to the op), until you try and explore other things and their potential, it's hard to envision how enjoyable something else could be, i was certainly dead set on a specific career at that age, and while i would still pursue that career now, i now know from my experiences that there are numerous careers i would find very satisfying, it sounds really stereotypical, but it's sort of like that song: i wish that i knew what i know now, but when i was younger, lol... o well, i guess part of the journey is finding out what you wish you knew

 

how do you know nothing else compares to meds?

[RyanMaverick]

this is bang on, pharmacy is becoming an extremely saturated profession in urban areas (i know over 7 pharmacists), my friend is moving from cranbrook to vancouver and taking a 10 dollar pay cut as well as having to go back to being a float (covering people's vacations all over the city etc.). pharmacy can be really good, but it's very location dependent.

 

i will agree though, that the work to pay ratio is fantastic, nurses max out where pharmacists start, doing relatively easier work, however, nurses have a public union and a fairly stable salary, whereas pharmacy is subject the wave of supply and demand, as well as changes in policy (giving pharmacy techs more privileges in alberta for example)

 

in the end, it really depends on the kind of life you want to live and whether the financial tradeoff for living in a big city is worth it (my other friend (who's staying in cranbrook) in cranbrook is the manager of the pharmacy 1 year out of school, in vancouver he would never have the opportunity, but he likes the autonomy and smaller town living, so it works for him

 

A good friend of mine and pharmacy classmate is about 1 year out of school and is a manager at a pharmacy in Cranbrook....? Maybe PM me the initials, see if it's the same guy.

[apache]

yeah, you're right about connections without a doubt, same thing with an img getting an optho spot post second round, it's all under the table and as much as we like to objectivize things, we're still human and we're still going to help out friends and acquaintances, in the end, it's sort of silly argument to have, i initially just responded to the comment that it's laughable that dent is easier than med to get into, it really depends on where you live, what you enjoy doing, and innumerable other factors... of course, complex situations need simple models to work and live our lives with, but we have to acknowledge that things are never really simple. i did dozens of practice mcats and i never scored below maybe a 12 or 13 in verbal, and i could say that it's really quite easy, irregardless, and that anyone should be able to do so with minimal preparation (the only prep i had was the practice tests), but that would be an ignorant statement which lacks personal insight into the fact that my experiences are an outlier (which also disadvantaged me for the science sections). i sort of find it arrogant (or even bigoted) to say that this or that is more objectively difficult when it's impossible to operationally define difficulty or when it is definable, when insufficient data is available, in order to argue that your chosen profession is the most difficult to get into. i had an easy time getting in medical school because i knew how to multi-task volunteering with studying and getting other things done, this means i got in with a lower gpa (but still high), so now, if i apply to dentistry, im at a disadvantage because they look mostly at marks... whereas if i apply to law, im at an insane advantage because i've had some of the most unique life experiences any applicant would have, as well as overcome things (and helped other people overcome things) that neither medical school nor dental schools would necessarily look at, but many law schools invite you to talk about... this also generally advantages poorer people, or people from dysfunctional families, etc. as they can talk about their experiences instead of having to compete against wealthier students who have lots of free time and money to create objective, quantifiable "volunteer activities" (i would love to put that i hung out with a homeless guy for a night, but because i didn't do this with any sort of organization or organized charity, but because i wanted an authentic feeling of what homeless life was like, i didn't put it on my med app, because in all honesty, that scares people off, and, it's not like i have a "verifier" (i suppose i could say he wanders around the university area), lol.

 

even looking at clinical psych, research productivity is highly emphasized, which makes it easier for some people who enjoy research, but disadvantages practical-psychology oriented people (like myself - i abhor the process of doing extensive research in clinical psychology and don't feel the process adds significantly to your clinical acumen, i'm very much an experientialist my pedagogical beliefs with regard to psychology. while an intricate understanding of research methods is important, it will never match extensive real life counselling experience and training)

 

I was referring to clinical psychology programs in Canada. The person I was speaking of is now in a clinical psych program in Canada. I know the professor whom this person is working with, and they are in the clinical program. I am a psych major lol...the diffences between clinical and counselling have been beaten into my brain. I am aware that there are also MEd and EdD child/school counselling programs as well, and was not referring to this either. My point is just that clinical is not that competitive if you are well-connected. It might be different in Alberta, but in Toronto, because we have access to professors from three different schools as undergrads, it is not difficult to find a supervisor. You can even go somewhere like U of T, which is much easier to get into since it's a large program and experimental, and still be a licensed clinical psychologist. They have this clinical extension program that churns out psychologists (specializing in developmental, neuro, and eating behaviours) like a machine! I've seen 6 of them in the past 2 years, and that's just in one lab.

 

Have you checked out the stats on lawstudents.ca? The first-round admits to Osgoode are given based on GPA and LSAT- softs don't come into play until the second round- and the stats still aren't that impressive...maybe an LSAT in the mid 80s with a~3.75 GPA in the best two years. I agree that U of T is harder to get into, but the chances of getting in during first round are quite high with a 3.8 and 90th-92nd percentile LSAT. And schools like UWO and Queen's require something like 80th percentile and an A-.

 

I agree with your statement that law isn't as easy to make absolute statements about, but I think anyone with a 3.8 and 90th percentile LSAT is pretty much guaranteed early acceptances everywhere, barring any red flags.

[UBCStudent128]

My backup to canadian med school is american med school.

[bilirubin3]

My backup to canadian med school is american med school.

 

Just to let you know, that's not really a good back up if you are Canadian. It's just as hard for Canadians to get into American schools than for them to get into Canadian schools (if not slightly harder).

[TheBoss]

Just to let you know, that's not really a good back up if you are Canadian. It's just as hard for Canadians to get into American schools than for them to get into Canadian schools (if not slightly harder).

 

How so? Few canadian schools allow applications from non-canadian students at all, whereas several US schools accept canadians (e.g. wayne state, UMich, Case Western, most top US schools). Personally, I know of a few cases where canadian applicants applied to US as backup and got in, but I never once heard of the reverse scenario.

[medigeek]

How so? Few canadian schools allow applications from non-canadian students at all, whereas several US schools accept canadians (e.g. wayne state, UMich, Case Western, most top US schools). Personally, I know of a few cases where canadian applicants applied to US as backup and got in, but I never once heard of the reverse scenario.

 

I thought there were 30 or so schools that you could get into?

And about 10 DO schools? (lets face it, a DO kills an international MD from every angle possible, yes top carribean schools included)

[TheBoss]

I thought there were 30 or so schools that you could get into?

And about 10 DO schools? (lets face it, a DO kills an international MD from every angle possible, yes top carribean schools included)

 

Could be, I don't know exactly how many but there's a relatively large number of them.

[medigeek]

Could be, I don't know exactly how many but there's a relatively large number of them.

 

I'm just recalling something I read, although the financial demand is also a lot higher. My parents have already said they can pay for me, but for those taking the loan route, I don't know how you'd pay for something that says "students must deposit the total tuition costs for 4 years + cost of living that is required for all 4 years + all fees into an american bank prior to matriculation." So obviously you're closing in on ~300k roughly for your 4 years needed upfront in cash.

 

But for pure admission difficulty, it seems applying to all MD schools + all DO schools (that accept canadians) would be an excellent back up plan.

[JB.]

I'm just recalling something I read, although the financial demand is also a lot higher. My parents have already said they can pay for me, but for those taking the loan route, I don't know how you'd pay for something that says "students must deposit the total tuition costs for 4 years + cost of living that is required for all 4 years + all fees into an american bank prior to matriculation." So obviously you're closing in on ~300k roughly for your 4 years needed upfront in cash.

 

But for pure admission difficulty, it seems applying to all MD schools + all DO schools (that accept canadians) would be an excellent back up plan.

 

Are you sure you have to pay upfront? I go to an American school. You have to show you have the money in your account for the first year. From there on out, you need to prove you have the means to pay either by some combo of family members pledging x dollar amount with income statements to prove it, personal funds, bank loans etc.

[Asta]

Just to let you know, that's not really a good back up if you are Canadian. It's just as hard for Canadians to get into American schools than for them to get into Canadian schools (if not slightly harder).

 

How so? Few canadian schools allow applications from non-canadian students at all, whereas several US schools accept canadians (e.g. wayne state, UMich, Case Western, most top US schools). Personally, I know of a few cases where canadian applicants applied to US as backup and got in, but I never once heard of the reverse scenario.

 

I think the top poster is saying that it is just as difficult for canadian applicants to get into american schools as it is for canadian applicants to get into canadian schools. Thus, the back up plan of going to the states isn't very good.

 

...that is how I interpreted that post.

[medigeek]

Are you sure you have to pay upfront? I go to an American school. You have to show you have the money in your account for the first year. From there on out, you need to prove you have the means to pay either by some combo of family members pledging x dollar amount with income statements to prove it, personal funds, bank loans etc.

 

well that sounds similar but i think different schools have varying policies.

I think the top poster is saying that it is just as difficult for canadian applicants to get into american schools as it is for canadian applicants to get into canadian schools. Thus, the back up plan of going to the states isn't very good.

 

...that is how I interpreted that post.

 

this is true for sure but statistically your odds are now MUCH higher.

[TheBoss]

I think the top poster is saying that it is just as difficult for canadian applicants to get into american schools as it is for canadian applicants to get into canadian schools. Thus, the back up plan of going to the states isn't very good.

 

...that is how I interpreted that post.

 

Oh, yeah that would make more sense , although I don't necessarily agree that US schools aren't a good backup

[bdmn86]

I'm in my 3rd year and like the billion other people, trying to become a doctor. I honestly don't have a backup plan, i know you can do research but after working in a lab for the past 3 years i'm really not looking to do that for my whole life.

 

What are some of your backup careers to medicine??

 

It's definitely a good idea to have a backup to medicine. What areas of your studies or research piqued an interest? There are a ton of masters degrees that have great options for careers. Anything from physiotherapy to public health policy or epidemiology studies. I did my bachelor's in nursing which is another option as there are many 2 year nursing programs. It's not quite medicine but comes with it's own set of opportunities for a great career.

 

Nothing to hold yourself back from if you don't let it. Best of luck!

[future_doc]

And being a Physician Assistant sounds wonderful.