medigeek Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Who said anything about immigrants? It would make sense for them to move there because GTA's so big. However when you're talking about docs moving to find jobs, which is really what your post implied, you can't say that most of them want to move to Toronto. I was talking about people not just doctors. My post did not imply that. Toronto/gta is saturated in just about every profession (aside from a rare few, with FM basically the only healthcare job that's in demand), simply due to more people wanting to live here. I mean let's face it, would you rather be in richmond hill or in a town 100km west of edmonton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futurepediatric Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 I was talking about people not just doctors. My post did not imply that. Toronto/gta is saturated in just about every profession (aside from a rare few, with FM basically the only healthcare job that's in demand), simply due to more people wanting to live here. I mean let's face it, would you rather be in richmond hill or in a town 100km west of edmonton? LOL oh no, are you from Richmond Hill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnb88 Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 I was talking about people not just doctors. My post did not imply that. Toronto/gta is saturated in just about every profession (aside from a rare few, with FM basically the only healthcare job that's in demand), simply due to more people wanting to live here. I mean let's face it, would you rather be in richmond hill or in a town 100km west of edmonton? How about IN Edmonton considering there's a demand for pretty much any job in Edmonton. Or if you want to look at suburbs, how about you look at actual suburbs of Edmonton. Otherwise it's the same thing as living 100km outside of the GTA. Also, I'd go for living 130km west of Calgary or even 365km west of Edmonton any day:D I'm done though. You can't admit you're even remotely wrong or incorrect in your thinking at all. I don't mind having arguments with people, as long as they are intelligent in their discussions and concede points when proven wrong (just as I do when I'm proven wrong with CONCRETE information). Bottom line relating back to they argument, there's a lot of jobs that some people find prestigious and others do not. Although, I'd argue a Nobel Prize winner is likely among the most prestigious. *passes the torch to someone else dumb enough to argue with a troll* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFlare500 Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 *passes the torch to someone else dumb enough to argue with a troll**Takes up torch. Dergh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Lol, you're right, but making these attributions will eventually lead to long periods of despair. Something about referencing S an M parlors, n friends who have dubious careers would lead me not to publicly endorse my posts either, but you'd be surprised at the amount of PM's I get that are like wow, I never thought of it that way, if you're too openly radical, you get punished, I just live most my opinions in real life, there's no point in trying to help people who no desire to change or are content, but if someone invites an opinion I'm more than likely to share it, since I know they'll be receptive and I won't be wasting my time, also, something about a real conversation where you don't have to condense 1 minute of speech into 2 pages greatly facilitates communication. Muse it sometimes surprises me how similarly we think, although I don't make it a habit to support your posts . The only thing is I believe that some people are quite aware of the state of our society but still choose to function within it, and remain happy doing so. They just attribute joy/sadness/frustration/etc. to things differently than you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendanJ Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 . And the little dudes running around talking about 120 hour weeks, saving lives every other minute, and acting like they'd do it for free... /thread reposted for all the "little dudes" in first semester biology slinging ad hominems http://drcason.org/2008/08/19/the-ugly-side-of-being-a-doctor/ Just trying to educate you, if there is in fact a real person behind the troll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendanJ Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Also a good series for you to read: http://ifinding.blogspot.com/2007/08/dont-become-doctor.html?m=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medigeek Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 reposted for all the "little dudes" in first semester biology slinging ad hominems http://drcason.org/2008/08/19/the-ugly-side-of-being-a-doctor/ Just trying to educate you, if there is in fact a real person behind the troll Also a good series for you to read: http://ifinding.blogspot.com/2007/08/dont-become-doctor.html?m=1 ok. The fact remains, I want to become a doctor. And since I'm applying all across the US/and DO (on top of Canada), I probably will become a doctor in the end. And reality is, there's lots of sh*t to say about every career in the world. We can ALL agree on that fact. So you pick what you want to do based on a bunch of factors, simple as that. The rest is bullsh*t and 95% of the people don't give a sh*t about it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JustAnotherStudent Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 ok. The fact remains, I want to become a doctor. And since I'm applying all across the US/and DO (on top of Canada), I probably will become a doctor in the end. This reminds me of the "why university is so easy" topic by some random guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 honestly, he's trying to help you, seriously, the last thing you want to do is be in 4th year med, hating every moment of it, and 150 k in dept... after pre-clin, life can be a living hell at times, and you've got to go through this for 7+ years, in addition to 6 years of pre-clin, and undergrad, thats 2/3's of the years you've lived, i don't think doctors are prestigious by any means, dealing with blood, guts, ****, suicides, screaming babies and occasionally death death all day, working inane hours on little sleep, it can be a rough life, on the other hands, i absolutely have the utmost respect for good docs who are also good people, respect and prestige, while sounding similar, are very different concepts, prestige means something different to everyone, i don't even know if i can even conceptualize prestige, what the hell is it? i'd feel comfortable sitting down with barrack and having a convo about foreign policy, he's just a human being, everyone is, watch rock stars videos on their tour busses, they're on their macbook's like i am right now, to be honest, i really look up to some of the big nano-tech guys here, foucault, nietschze, sarte, churchill, jack layton, steve jobs, deepak chopra, tim leary, ron paul (even though i don't agree with a lot of what he has to say), tim thomas comes to mind as a favourite because of his unwavering dedication, confidence in himself, and not-take-himself-too-seriously attitude to life, i've always looked up to richard kruspe from rammstein because of his openness about his insecurities and fears, despite the fact that woman view him as a sex god, that takes a lot of courage... if you want a sense of earnestness, i even respect dawkins, who argues gibberish, that's highly dogmatic, and philosophically weak, however, he has a better vocabulary than me, and speaks very well, in terms of his language, i watch a lot of his documentaries just to pick up on his speaking skills, even though his philosophical arguments are asinine doctors also don't have the same prestige they use too, when i go to my fam doc, i usually have spent countless hours researching and know more about the issue than they do since they have to be mechanics for such a wide variety of things, the internet is really undermining the reverence we used to have for physicians, my adhd doc and me have conversations as equals and often explain complex topics too each other, there's not a hint of the traditional paternalism and reverence of the 60's, i can read ekg's (and have reference material i can look too since i understand the underlying theory), interpret abnormalities in my blood work just as well as my fp can, the only difference may be in physical exams skills, besides that i can teach everything they cursorily know to myself in detail. i'm actually interested in this topic quite a bit, i have a real respect for 3 doctors that have treated me in my life, because they were good, and really kind, so having an md may be a necessary, but not sufficient clause for being viewed as prestigious (i think we're moving to an era where the individual physician is deemed as prestigious, rather than just having the md, especially with the heralding in of the information age.). also, just because i'm not in medicine doesn't mean i don't read all my old med books (i think i prob have more than most med students, although my toronto notes is outdated), i don't necessarily trust all docs, some are good, some are hacks, and i want to be able to advocate for my own health... and if that means a hundred hours reading about a topic, so be it... i'm not sure, maybe it's my obsessive personality, i'm probably not a good representation of the average person in the population, but i think some of the generalities i bring up are certainly valid. ok. The fact remains, I want to become a doctor. And since I'm applying all across the US/and DO (on top of Canada), I probably will become a doctor in the end. And reality is, there's lots of sh*t to say about every career in the world. We can ALL agree on that fact. So you pick what you want to do based on a bunch of factors, simple as that. The rest is bullsh*t and 95% of the people don't give a sh*t about it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 The internet can be a great resource for patients and sometimes helps them help the doctor. Most of the time I think it just leads to patients coming in and thinking they have a variety of rare diseases. Someone told me that they had a patient come in and wanted testing for von willebrand deficiency because their periods were heavy. No amount of internet knowledge can replace 4 years of medical school + residency and the actual hands-on clinical training where you actually put all that overwhelming knowledge together into a coherent package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasiunut Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 I LOL'd at this thread. I find it funny that making $200K per year is worth the 10+ years of studying, personal sacrifices and several thousands in debt. Hell, owning a couple Tim Horton's franchises will make you more $$ the the average doctor. My dad actually started in science because his parents wanted him to be a doctor but when he realized he couldn't stand the sight of blood he went a different way.He got his CA and now makes approx $800K/year. He also has several million in assets. And when you think that he's a rare case, he really isn't! Look, don't get me wrong, the income you make as a doctor once done school, residency etc will certainly make you comfortable, but it won't make you really rich. To be honest, I don't think any of my dad's pre-med friends who ended up as doctors make more than he does. But plenty of his CA friends do - or much more. But am I the only one who thinks that money shouldn't be a driver in becoming a doctor??? Its a HARD job, requires long hours, constant studying (doesn't medicine becomes obsolete every 5 years?) and a lot of sacrifices. Doctors have higher than average instances of depression, suicide and divorce. Is a measly $200K per year worth all that??? If you want to be a doctor you should really do it because of the love of the job. Because you can't imagine doing anything else. Something that you would do even if you got paid only $50K per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Let'sGo1990 Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 It's all about the spread. CAs have a huge spread. The ceiling is unlimited but the average income is less than six figures. Your dad is probably rarer than you think. Medicine is fairly consistent. Few doctors if any earn less than six figures. On a per hour basis much of this is no better than being a teacher, which is why the ROAD (and i foresee path and radonc in the future) has so much competition right now. Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is ROAD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasiunut Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 It's all about the spread. CAs have a huge spread. The ceiling is unlimited but the average income is less than six figures. Your dad is probably rarer than you think. Medicine is fairly consistent. Few doctors if any earn less than six figures. On a per hour basis much of this is no better than being a teacher, which is why the ROAD (and i foresee path and radonc in the future) has so much competition right now. You are absolutely right. The spread is much bigger. But I guess the point I'm trying to make is I don't get how anyone can go into medicine because of money being a main factor. You really can make a LOT of money in a LOT of different professions in a much simpler way. I feel its actually quite sick and disgusting for people to put themselves through all that is required to become a doctor for just $200K per year. And besides, of graduating doctors how many ACTUALLY end up in ROAD? The reason I want to do it is because I feel passionate about it (for various reason) but money is really one of the bottom priorities - don't get me wrong I want to be able to provide for my family but if money was a driving factor I'd totally put that drive and focus into something much more lucrative, where I wouldn't cap out at $200-300K per year (and deal with the insane pressures, higher risk of divorce, depression, insane hours etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasiunut Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Pardon my ignorance' date=' but what exactly is ROAD?[/quote'] Radiology, Orthro, Anesthesiology & Derm --> the highest paid medical professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychoswim Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Radiology, Orthro, Anesthesiology & Derm --> the highest paid medical professions. Ophto ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasiunut Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Ophto ... LOL sorry, i was typing too quickly. I meant Ophto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justletmein Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 My dad actually started in science because his parents wanted him to be a doctor but when he realized he couldn't stand the sight of blood he went a different way.He got his CA and now makes approx $800K/year. He also has several million in assets. And when you think that he's a rare case, he really isn't! Just to bring you back to planet earth: "With their specialized talents, CAs get paid very well. An articling student earns $45,000 a year and the average compensation for a new CA is $72,000. In Ontario, 62 per cent of CAs earn more than $100,000 a year. The average salary for a CA with five years experience is $113,140. And the average CA earns more than $168,000." source: http://www.thestar.com/article/124850 So yes, your dad is the exception, not the rule. I have friends who are CA's who have no hope of making what I will make as an MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasiunut Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Just to bring you back to planet earth: "With their specialized talents, CAs get paid very well. An articling student earns $45,000 a year and the average compensation for a new CA is $72,000. In Ontario, 62 per cent of CAs earn more than $100,000 a year. The average salary for a CA with five years experience is $113,140. And the average CA earns more than $168,000." source: http://www.thestar.com/article/124850 So yes, your dad is the exception, not the rule. I have friends who are CA's who have no hope of making what I will make as an MD. Sorry, yes as a CA who is a practicing CA - but he's not - his CA lead him to be a VP of finance and then later he started his own businesses. The stats you quoted are for CAs who are still practicing CAs. The skills he learned as a CA is what got him to where he is now. Many of his CA friends did something similar and many of them are earning well over $500K per year. Or maybe all he knows are super successful people? I guess that's possible. My point is that of all the people out there that are making $200K+, I bet doctors are a small percentage. Also, I went down the CA route too. I am qualified and have my CA. Most of my friends from business school look at me like I'm crazy because realistically, I'll totally be the "poor" one of my group because of the opportunity cost of income forgone to go to med school, taking on student loans, then making a tiny amount in residency...plus my main ambition is to be a family doctor (at the moment) so will be on the low end of the pay scale most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Also, I went down the CA route too. I am qualified and have my CA. Most of my friends from business school look at me like I'm crazy because realistically, I'll totally be the "poor" one of my group because of the opportunity cost of income forgone to go to med school, taking on student loans, then making a tiny amount in residency...plus my main ambition is to be a family doctor (at the moment) so will be on the low end of the pay scale most likely. Trust me, with the recession, once you are a full fledged doc, your old classmates won't look at you like you're crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasiunut Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 I'm hoping when (if) I'm a fully fledged doc they'll see how much happier I'll be doing something I love rather than chase money...I see how unhappy a lot of people who did choose careers just based on what will make them a lot of money (I-bankers, a few corporate lawyers) whose jobs are sucking the life and soul of them are- hell, I was one of those people. But the recession won't last for ever, and honestly, I don't have a single unemployed friend (other than a couple by choice - mostly so they can travel or work on entrepreneurial ventures). They will continue to make lots of money. Ok, final argument -- the people who are smart enough to make into medical school have the abilities to be the "rare" cases in other fields. Ergo, they would make more money doing something else...and are odd to choose medicine primarily because it will make them a lot of money. Its the average people who make the average lawyer, CA, engineer salaries. But average people don't make it into med school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBoss Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 There seems to be a highly disproportionate number of super rich people on this board who love to bring up the notion, at every opportunity, that they could be easily be multimillionaires, but are going into meds cause they just love being helpers oh so much. Are there such people? Sure, but even so why would so many of them feel the need to bring up their circumstances on this board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Let'sGo1990 Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 There seems to be a highly disproportionate number of super rich people on this board who love to bring up the notion, at every opportunity, that they could be easily be multimillionaires, but are going into meds cause they just love being helpers oh so much. Are there such people? Sure, but even so why would so many of them feel the need to bring up their circumstances on this board? I was thinking this too. Money should never be the sole reason anybody goes into med. But I highly doubt 98% of premeds would stick with being a doctor if pay were to be cut down to like $50 000. Whether people want to believe an ideal doctor and med school applicant should not care about income, most of them do. It's reality. It's definitely a factor in why people decide they want to become doctors in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morzan Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 But I highly doubt 98% of premeds would stick with being a doctor if pay were to be cut down to like $50 000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 There seems to be a highly disproportionate number of super rich people on this board who love to bring up the notion, at every opportunity, that they could be easily be multimillionaires, but are going into meds cause they just love being helpers oh so much. Are there such people? Sure, but even so why would so many of them feel the need to bring up their circumstances on this board? I don't see anyone claiming to be super rich nor do I see people claiming they could have been multimillionaires - I certainly know I couldn't have but perhaps, some of have made a decent salary in their previous/existing careers but have realized that having the money we've made isn't the path to our happiness thus are seeking out something more? Some people won't *get* this because they pursued one thing and never branched out thus have no comparison for the different road travelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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