Bitter about Grad school status for Med in Canada

[paloma22]

I came across this thread and it made me bitter about Canadian recognition of Graduate level work for entrance to medical schools:

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=1246848#post1246848

 

Is it just me, or does it seem the U.S. system recognizes successful graduate work (ie. MS or MPH) much more than the Canadian system?

 

It seems unfair, given I would much rather prove my MD candidacy by completing a course based MPH successfully, than by completing a second useless undergrad.

 

Any thoughts?

[tooty]

that's life my friend. **** happens. roll with it.

[ondansetron]

+1 to the above posts.

 

Also the thread that you quoted is over 7 years old and doesn't represent any information that is properly cited. There is no information that people with Master's are treated differently in the US. I would like links to websites of med schools to be properly convinced.

 

And no form of education is ever useless. Every form of education has its uses more than anything else.

[RiceWine]

I came across this thread and it made me bitter about Canadian recognition of Graduate level work for entrance to medical schools:

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=1246848#post1246848

 

Is it just me, or does it seem the U.S. system recognizes successful graduate work (ie. MS or MPH) much more than the Canadian system?

 

It seems unfair, given I would much rather prove my MD candidacy by completing a course based MPH successfully, than by completing a second useless undergrad.

 

Any thoughts?

 

i think it's school dependent. There will always be room for students with advanced degrees in any class.

[futureGP]

why is MPH useful and another ugrad useless?

 

to be honest, MPH is pretty useless and can be covered in an ugrad degree. (stats? epi? policy?)

all course-based master's can be done in ugrad easy -- all money-making degrees

 

its a result of academic inflation + educational devaluation.

 

also, there is no proof to say that med students with grad degree > med students with ugrad degree

 

so why?

[Nasket]

why is MPH useful and another ugrad useless?

 

to be honest, MPH is pretty useless and can be covered in an ugrad degree. (stats? epi? policy?)

all course-based master's can be done in ugrad easy -- all money-making degrees

 

its a result of academic inflation + educational devaluation.

 

also, there is no proof to say that med students with grad degree > med students with ugrad degree

 

so why?

 

You must be kidding. I hope you don't actually turn out to be a GP (or any other type of physician) with this kind of attitude. If you are, I feel bad for your patients.

In no way am I getting defensive about my MPH, but what if I said the same thing about every field we come across. Just because the course names are the same that you see in other schools (or undergraduate degrees), it does not mean it's the same thing. They are taught in an entirely different, application-based fashion.

 

Your statement is like saying, "who needs to go to medical school to be a cardiologist? They offer cardiology courses in community colleges, so you can do that and practice as a physician".

 

While I do agree that doing a Masters does not necessarily mean that they will be better than one with an undergrad degree, I think it certainly helps. Why do you think so many graduating medical students go into a masters program concurrently as they are doing their residency/fellowship, etc?

[rmorelan]

I think it boils down to the great difficulty in determining the utility of graduate work in general, and that all the objective measures of student performance at medical school don't indicate that having a graduate degree makes you any more successful. Those schools that do use graduate degrees as a component of their evaluation in a quantified way seem to either give a flat bonus or an across the board reduction in the requirements. Either way they are still not accessing what you actually did (which I guess I would be much more difficult but probably more fair - someone that did a huge important thesis is probably more likely to be better researcher than someone who did a one year course work masters - those degrees are two different things after all).

[Robin Hood]

Even a bachelor degree is useless for med school. Half of Quebec med students got in from cegep.

[EngGirl]

Even a bachelor degree is useless for med school. Half of Quebec med students got in from cegep.

 

That really depends on your career goals. To not have at least one extra degree makes your summer work before graduation all that more critical.

 

The top spots at the top hospitals go to MD/PhD's. Of course you can get a PhD while in residency, but to do both at once seems like a nightmare.

 

However if your goal is less ambitious then I would agree, graduate school isn't necessary.

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

I would not say it's useless, I just think it's incorrect to say that those with more previous education do better in med school in general.

 

I'm not sure that's true. Since the selection process is favoured toward people with more education (all else being equal), the students that do make it through without a degree or just a BSc. tend to do better.

[futureGP]

You must be kidding. I hope you don't actually turn out to be a GP (or any other type of physician) with this kind of attitude. If you are, I feel bad for your patients.

In no way am I getting defensive about my MPH, but what if I said the same thing about every field we come across. Just because the course names are the same that you see in other schools (or undergraduate degrees), it does not mean it's the same thing. They are taught in an entirely different, application-based fashion.

 

Your statement is like saying, "who needs to go to medical school to be a cardiologist? They offer cardiology courses in community colleges, so you can do that and practice as a physician".

 

While I do agree that doing a Masters does not necessarily mean that they will be better than one with an undergrad degree, I think it certainly helps. Why do you think so many graduating medical students go into a masters program concurrently as they are doing their residency/fellowship, etc?

 

I'm saying a master's degree for the courses you take in MPH is overdoing it.

 

A bachelor's degree in public health can take the same courses and do the same thing without it having to be a master's degree.

It is another form of academic inflation because MDs after having gone to school for 8 years don't want to get a Bachelor's of Public Health and want a "master's" instead.

 

Plus, why can't a bachelor's degree can be taught 'application-based'? Just cause it's taught in an application-based fashion doesn't mean it has to be a 'professional master's'.

 

Just like a BEng, BPH really is enough to train a public health professional.

[totes]

futureGP, if you look at recent job postings for public health work in Canada, I doubt a "BPH" is sufficient to compete against MPH holders.

 

Sincerely, a MPH Epi Candidate at U of T

[Real Beef]

I'm saying a master's degree for the courses you take in MPH is overdoing it.

 

A bachelor's degree in public health can take the same courses and do the same thing without it having to be a master's degree.

It is another form of academic inflation because MDs after having gone to school for 8 years don't want to get a Bachelor's of Public Health and want a "master's" instead.

 

Plus, why can't a bachelor's degree can be taught 'application-based'? Just cause it's taught in an application-based fashion doesn't mean it has to be a 'professional master's'.

 

Just like a BEng, BPH really is enough to train a public health professional.

 

I suspect you have never been a grad student? As a grad/masters student you are expected to do academic activities beyond the scope or scale of an undergrad student. For example being able to assess/evaluate literature, write research/grant proposals, conduct research independently, bring new knowledge to your field ... these are above what is expected from undergraduate students. Even in course based programs the level of writing and original thought is expected to be higher.

 

The stuff I did in my MPH I never did in my undergrad. Sure I could have did a few things on a smaller scale but write a 160 page+ thesis on original research I came up with, conducted, wrote up and am publishing over the past two years .... no way, cant do it in undergrad.

[Thomas86]

What is fair?

 

Why does an MPH or MS prove someone to be a better candidate? Med school is an undergrad, an intense one that requires the skill sets that makes someone able to get high marks in undergrad. In MPH or MS the marks are inflated and the type of education is not reflective of the way the material is delivered during the first 2 years.

 

do you even know what your talking about??... having a MS or PhD degree shows maturity of the person, having a perfect GPA doesnt mean crap!... because alot of students just take easy courses, and as long as they take the requirements such as chem, bio, phys and etc, theyre fine to apply...how is that a good indicative of a good doctor???

if a person has MS degree with a good MCAT thats a much better indicative of a perfect students since MCAT tests enough science material...

US is doing a much better job in accepting the right doctors... Obviously its the reason that American Doctors are the most well known doctors around the world!

[Fullmetal_Biochemist]

do you even know what your talking about??... having a MS or PhD degree shows maturity of the person, having a perfect GPA doesnt mean crap!... because alot of students just take easy courses, and as long as they take the requirements such as chem, bio, phys and etc, theyre fine to apply...how is that a good indicative of a good doctor???

if a person has MS degree with a good MCAT thats a much better indicative of a perfect students since MCAT tests enough science material...

US is doing a much better job in accepting the right doctors... Obviously its the reason that American Doctors are the most well known doctors around the world!

 

self-justification for not being able to get in with your low bachelor's GPA

 

you skewed up your undergrad, and that's your own fault.

 

Finally, you play the game by the rule, not the opposite way. Not happy? Then find something else to do then.

 

[Thomas86]

I dont think I "screwed up" my undergrad, I was able to publish a paper, which is something that differentiates me from students like you.

 

I respect most Canadian Med students who really worked hard to get to where they are, but some only got in because of their high GPA, who are barely close to being a mature students

 

and if you doubt which country has the best doctors around the world, search it up on google.

[Fullmetal_Biochemist]

I dont think I "screwed up" my undergrad, I was able to publish a paper, which is something that differentiates me from students like you.

 

I respect most Canadian Med students who really worked hard to get to where they are, but some only got in because of their high GPA, who are barely close to being a mature students

 

and if you doubt which country has the best doctors around the world, do a little search it up on google.

 

Maybe you can continue doing a Ph.D to show medschool your great maturity and skills Hope you don't get any (further) bitter since that not good for your health

[Thomas86]

go read the stories of students who worked rlly hard to get accepted to a medical school such as Dr. Henderson and Real Beef... their maturity compared to other Med students is unimaginable and yet they are place in the same class that has some cookie-cutting students who completed their undergrad with a GPA of 3.8-4 taking useless courses...and they got accepted, why? cuz most canadian schools care mostly about the GPA

[Thomas86]

Oh, I didnt know I was speaking to a child, never mind all my responses to you

[Fullmetal_Biochemist]

Oh, I didnt know I was speaking to a child, never mind all my responses to you

 

Wow, your way of arguement is really matured I am impressed

[m1428]

go read the stories of students who worked rlly hard to get accepted to a medical school such as Dr. Henderson and Real Beef... their maturity compared to other Med students is unimaginable and yet they are place in the same class that has some cookie-cutting students who completed their undergrad with a GPA of 3.8-4 taking useless courses...and they got accepted, why? cuz most canadian schools care mostly about the GPA

Oh, I didnt know I was speaking to a child, never mind all my responses to you

 

So... if students have good GPAs and got into med school, they took useless courses to get high GPAs while those people (like you) who took "hard" courses and had a low GPA should instead end up getting into med school because you're so much more mature than everyone else? Seems legit.

 

It's funny that you seem to think that non-trads are the only ones that worked "rlly hard" to get accepted to medical school. Everyone works very hard to get into med school, non-trad or not. What makes you think you can judge other people's maturity when you seem to be unable to get over your own sense of self-entitlement and arrogance?

 

do you even know what your talking about??... having a MS or PhD degree shows maturity of the person, having a perfect GPA doesnt mean crap!... because alot of students just take easy courses, and as long as they take the requirements such as chem, bio, phys and etc, theyre fine to apply...how is that a good indicative of a good doctor???

if a person has MS degree with a good MCAT thats a much better indicative of a perfect students since MCAT tests enough science material...

US is doing a much better job in accepting the right doctors... Obviously its the reason that American Doctors are the most well known doctors around the world!

 

Do you even realize what sort of crap you're spouting? Having a high GPA shows a lot of things, which is why it's one of the most important factors in admissions. Seriously, stop trolling.

[Real Beef]

Hmm the way I see it is that the medical school admissions system is what it is and if you wish to enter it the best thing to do is try and see how you can increase your chances of getting in. I think the bitterness will not help in you attaining your goal, nor will resentment or anger towards those that have a perceived easier time getting in.

 

Hey, for years I watched people getting in who I thought I could be a better physician then and was jealous, angry at time about this. But at one point, perhaps 4-5 years ago I didnt really care anymore. I became 'happy' for them. I no longer saw them as adversaries or obstacles to my entrance but just people on the same path that I was going/wished to go on. I chatted with medical students and tried to find out what qualities and ECs they had and saw how I matched up and used this information to improve myself/my application. I even commented to my girlfriend one day "You know when I meet a medical student it doesnt bother me anymore. I am not in awe of them but I do try to learn something so I can get closer to my goal" ... or something along those lines.

 

So as non-trads we admittedly did something in our past that made us less desirable to the medical school admissions community. We need to try and excise the emotion and look at which schools we still have a chance at and concentrate at being the best candidates we can be for those few select schools. For example I only applied to NOSM and only got into NOSM. As a non-trad we are likely not desirable to most schools and we have to play with their policies and see how we can make our applications competitive with traditional applicants ... if no matter what you do you cant gain equal footing then it is time to move on to another med school that you may be able to gain that equal footing. That is what I did over time and it seemed to work. Certainly me having a hate on for anyone previously admitted to NOSM would not have been a productive activity and also I would have missed out on chatting and learning from some cool people.

 

Good luck.

[Alai]

If maturity is just a function of age and education, and the more relevant the education to medicine the more it will contribute to your aptitude as a doctor, then it's reasonable to conclude that to REALLY compare a trad and non-trad in terms of maturity, you have to look at the two at the same age. If a non-trad graduated from med at 30, and a trad at 24, you can't say, 'the one at 30 is more mature', it's meaningless. Compare the trad when he is 30, to the non-trad, and I think it will be evident that either there is no real difference, or the non-trad by virtue of more exposure to medicine will be a superior doctor by that age, all other things held equal.

 

Not hating on non-trads, but the whole anti-high-gpa and undergrads-are-immature I'm reading in this thread make me cringe. It all depends on individuals; I'm personally not impressed by the 'maturity' of most grad students I know, but I don't go around making silly generalizations through it.

[future_doc]

In Quebec, Cegepiens regularly get into med school in their teens, have no problem passing licencing exams and become competent physicians.

[Kasiunut]

^ agreed. I think maturity is a very important quality to have as a doctor but I also agree it doesn't necessarily come from age, but rather experience. Personally I see no difference in the experience that someone gets as a grad student that makes them any more desirable than an udnergrad. Life experiences such as working in the real world, dealing with tough circumstances and events (death of friend, having children, dealing with illnesses) are what forces people to mature and gain wisdom.

 

Look, I too sometimes hate the system - having never taken a science course since HS (over 10 a decade ago) the MCAT is a major pain in the ass for me. Ots the only really weak part of my application, but I have no choice but to get over myself and just do it, even though I know that in the long run, the stuff I'm tested on is not going to help me be a better doctor. And I think a good indicator of maturity is being able to recognize this - nothing in life is perfect and sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and do things you don't want to/think are pointless because they are the required steps in the process. Because at the end of the day, you can complain about it all you want - it still won't get you into med school.

 

That being said, i think having a high GPA is a good indicator of both maturity and intelligence. It shows that someone is mature enough to make their studies a priority and it shows that they are actually smart. They are both equally important qualities for a physician to have.