UBC 2nd iteration Internal Medicine ROS

[heydere]

Hey,

UBC IM has two spots left in 2nd iteration, both requiring return of service. Does anyone know`` the following:

- How many years is the return of service? 3 (the length of the core training) or 4-5?

- Can you do fellowships? If you can, do you do return of service as a subspecialist or as a general internist?

- What areas are candidates sent for ROS? The contract specifies the general locations for FM ROS, but not so much for IM ROS. 

Thanks!

[2ndroundthrowaway]

The PD will tell you during the interview, but 

 

3 years ROS. You cannot subspecialize and will only do the 4 year program and train as GIM. The service areas depend on the year and there is no list, he did say they will probably be quite rural as the suburban spots are already filled. 

[bearded frog]

Interesting, usually in ROS you can sub-specialize but you have to come back after to do ROS

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

Sounds awful... they are taking advantage of unmatched applicants... how sad...

[Edict]

On 3/14/2018 at 7:59 PM, DermJuly2018PGY1 said:

Sounds awful... they are taking advantage of unmatched applicants... how sad...

I don't know about that... those were IMG spots that I believe UBC left "unfilled" in order to help unmatched applicants. The RoS attached to them is one of the issues with RoS in BC. 

[psychiatry2017]

 

On 3/14/2018 at 7:59 PM, DermJuly2018PGY1 said:

Sounds awful... they are taking advantage of unmatched applicants... how sad...

They are doing CMGs a favour by not ranking any IMGS in the first round. Same thing for dermatology residency IMG spot in Ottawa, it has always been left vacant for 2nd iteration.

I think that doing ROS for 4-5 years in internal medicine is better than going unmatched, unless you don't mind doing Family Medicine the following year. 

The case of Robert Chu is a good example of applying broadly in first round and back-up, unless you cannot see yourself in family medicine. 

[indefatigable]

11 minutes ago, psychiatry2017 said:

Same thing for dermatology residency IMG spot in Ottawa, it has always been left vacant for 2nd iteration.

Rumour has it that spot is internal Ottawa transfer - or was last year. 

[NLengr]

9 hours ago, marrakech said:

Rumour has it that spot is internal Ottawa transfer - or was last year. 

 

Alledgedly (although I have heard this from several different and respectable academic physicians involved in UofO residency selection, so I think the info is pretty reliable but use your own judgement):

It's a spot that the university forced on the program (it was done to multiple programs at UofO). None of the programs wanted those IMG spots. So what is done is to make the IMG requirements so extreme they are almost impossible to meet. Then you go back to the university and say there was no suitable IMG candidate. It goes to second round and you get a CMG. 

The university gets extra money from the province when they match an IMG to that spot so the university would rather fill those IMG spots with IMGs/CSAs and let a CMG go unmatched. 

Multiple programs in the university were doing the same approach for years but UofO told the program directors if the IMG spot wasn't filled by an IMG they would take away a CMG spot the following year. So most programs had to start taking IMGs for those spots to protect their CMG spots. I don't know how derm has gotten away with still doing it every year. Connections maybe.

 

[indefatigable]

2 hours ago, NLengr said:

 

Alledgedly (although I have heard this from several different and respectable academic physicians involved in UofO residency selection, so I think the info is pretty reliable but use your own judgement):

It's a spot that the university forced on the program (it was done to multiple programs at UofO). None of the programs wanted those IMG spots. So what is done is to make the IMG requirements so extreme they are almost impossible to meet. Then you go back to the university and say there was no suitable IMG candidate. It goes to second round and you get a CMG. 

The university gets extra money from the province when they match an IMG to that spot so the university would rather fill those IMG spots with IMGs/CSAs and let a CMG go unmatched. 

Multiple programs in the university were doing the same approach for years but UofO told the program directors if the IMG spot wasn't filled by an IMG they would take away a CMG spot the following year. So most programs had to start taking IMGs for those spots to protect their CMG spots. I don't know how derm has gotten away with still doing it every year. Connections maybe.

 

Interesting...  It wasn't held over in 2016 or 2014 but in 2015 and 2013 yes.  Rumour has it that in 2017 it was an internal UofO transfer.  It looks like (almost) every odd year it's held over.

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

30 minutes ago, marrakech said:

Interesting...  It wasn't held over in 2016 or 2014 but in 2015 and 2013 yes.  Rumour has it that in 2017 it was an internal UofO transfer.  It looks like (almost) every odd year it's held over.

The wonders of derm in Canada 

[heydere]

On 3/17/2018 at 0:05 AM, psychiatry2017 said:

 

They are doing CMGs a favour by not ranking any IMGS in the first round. Same thing for dermatology residency IMG spot in Ottawa, it has always been left vacant for 2nd iteration.

I think that doing ROS for 4-5 years in internal medicine is better than going unmatched, unless you don't mind doing Family Medicine the following year. 

The case of Robert Chu is a good example of applying broadly in first round and back-up, unless you cannot see yourself in family medicine. 

 

On 3/16/2018 at 10:13 PM, Edict said:

I don't know about that... those were IMG spots that I believe UBC left "unfilled" in order to help unmatched applicants. The RoS attached to them is one of the issues with RoS in BC. 

I dont think this was intentionally a favour to "predicted" unmatched CMGs by not ranking IMGs. It is possible that the ones they ranked matched to other IMG spots, including UofT IM which has 10 IMG spots. 

[GrouchoMarx]

On 3/17/2018 at 9:44 AM, NLengr said:

 

Alledgedly (although I have heard this from several different and respectable academic physicians involved in UofO residency selection, so I think the info is pretty reliable but use your own judgement):

It's a spot that the university forced on the program (it was done to multiple programs at UofO). None of the programs wanted those IMG spots. So what is done is to make the IMG requirements so extreme they are almost impossible to meet. Then you go back to the university and say there was no suitable IMG candidate. It goes to second round and you get a CMG. 

The university gets extra money from the province when they match an IMG to that spot so the university would rather fill those IMG spots with IMGs/CSAs and let a CMG go unmatched. 

Multiple programs in the university were doing the same approach for years but UofO told the program directors if the IMG spot wasn't filled by an IMG they would take away a CMG spot the following year. So most programs had to start taking IMGs for those spots to protect their CMG spots. I don't know how derm has gotten away with still doing it every year. Connections maybe.

 

What? So youre saying that if a spot takes an IMG it gets EXTRA MONEY?

 

No wonder pathology residencies insist on taking IMGs whose skills and intellects match those of a quokka. $$$$

 

Im disgusted by this. since this is a health matter, surely there must be a public record of this agreement?

[hamham]

On 3/14/2018 at 5:59 PM, DermJuly2018PGY1 said:

Sounds awful... they are taking advantage of unmatched applicants... how sad...

Not awful at all. The province is trying to train the specialties it needs most (GIM in this case). No one is pointing a gun at their heads and forcing them to apply. If you don't like it, don't apply.

[Edict]

3 hours ago, heydere said:

 

I dont think this was intentionally a favour to "predicted" unmatched CMGs by not ranking IMGs. It is possible that the ones they ranked matched to other IMG spots, including UofT IM which has 10 IMG spots. 

It is possible but they would have to be pretty picky in that case since theres thousands of IMG applicants. UBC IM is a solid program in a fantastic location, I don't think they would have trouble filling their 3 IMG spots if they tried. 

[psychiatry2017]

30 minutes ago, Edict said:

It is possible but they would have to be pretty picky in that case since theres thousands of IMG applicants. UBC IM is a solid program in a fantastic location, I don't think they would have trouble filling their 3 IMG spots if they tried. 

Exactly! I don't want to speculate further, but there are so many qualified IMGs wanting to take any specialty position (perhaps already dermatologist in their home country). If they want to fill their spots, they would have far more qualifed IMGS than CMGs.

For practicing purpose, it would be easier to have an CMG resident, as the culture of medicine & ethics is different in every country, although the medical knowledge is same everywhere. 

[2018hopeful]

On 17/03/2018 at 7:44 AM, NLengr said:

The university gets extra money from the province when they match an IMG to that spot so the university would rather fill those IMG spots with IMGs/CSAs and let a CMG go unmatched. 

Where does this magic money come from? In the last 5 years we've built up nearly 10% of a grad class in unmatched CMGs all while cutting CMG spots each year

[ArchEnemy]

5 hours ago, psychiatry2017 said:

Exactly! I don't want to speculate further, but there are so many qualified IMGs wanting to take any specialty position (perhaps already dermatologist in their home country). If they want to fill their spots, they would have far more qualifed IMGS than CMGs.

For practicing purpose, it would be easier to have an CMG resident, as the culture of medicine & ethics is different in every country, although the medical knowledge is same everywhere. 

I would not be too sure about this. As the saying goes: "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks".

Additionally, I have encountered a fair number of IMGs, and there is definitely a huge variation in levels of competency between IMGs from Western Europe/Scandinavia, compared to IMGs from Middle East / India.

[GrouchoMarx]

1 hour ago, ArchEnemy said:

I would not be too sure about this. As the saying goes: "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks".

Additionally, I have encountered a fair number of IMGs, and there is definitely a huge variation in levels of competency between IMGs from Western Europe/Scandinavia, compared to IMGs from Middle East / India.

pathology is an IMG haven and my experience has shown me enough variation in IMG quality that if i am ever to be a program director in pathology, there are going to be no IMGs accepted if theyre not from commonwealth countries, the usa, israel, western europe, south africa, japan, or south korea. 

for every excellent resident i have seen that trained at a bloc/south asian/chinese/middle eastern school, ive seen three incompetent ones. 

[NLengr]

7 hours ago, GrouchoMarx said:

pathology is an IMG haven and my experience has shown me enough variation in IMG quality that if i am ever to be a program director in pathology, there are going to be no IMGs accepted if theyre not from commonwealth countries, the usa, israel, western europe, south africa, japan, or south korea. 

for every excellent resident i have seen that trained at a bloc/south asian/chinese/middle eastern school, ive seen three incompetent ones. 

I also agree the quality of training outside of first world countries seems to be incredibly variable. 

[Organomegaly]

19 hours ago, GrouchoMarx said:

pathology is an IMG haven and my experience has shown me enough variation in IMG quality that if i am ever to be a program director in pathology, there are going to be no IMGs accepted if theyre not from commonwealth countries, the usa, israel, western europe, south africa, japan, or south korea. 

for every excellent resident i have seen that trained at a bloc/south asian/chinese/middle eastern school, ive seen three incompetent ones. 

McMaster has MANY Saudi residents (not sure if this is the case at other schools as well) who seem to be quite good at what they do, granted I've only encountered them in an internal medicine context. May be different in other specialties 

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:10 PM, Organomegaly said:

McMaster has MANY Saudi residents (not sure if this is the case at other schools as well) who seem to be quite good at what they do, granted I've only encountered them in an internal medicine context. May be different in other specialties 

there are also saudi applicants who somehow get some derm spots (calgary/alberta/mcgill/ubc). ridiculous... and unfair for CMGs.

[psychiatry2017]

On 3/19/2018 at 7:10 PM, Organomegaly said:

McMaster has MANY Saudi residents (not sure if this is the case at other schools as well) who seem to be quite good at what they do, granted I've only encountered them in an internal medicine context. May be different in other specialties 

but the Saudi residents sign a contract with their countries, and go back to their home country right after their training. Their residency is funded by their country exclusively, by all means, they are like free labour for our Canadian hospitals. I don't think that they take  any CMG spots to be honest. 

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

59 minutes ago, psychiatry2017 said:

but the Saudi residents sign a contract with their countries, and go back to their home country right after their training. Their residency is funded by their country exclusively, by all means, they are like free labour for our Canadian hospitals. I don't think that they take  any CMG spots to be honest. 

A lot of them wiggle their way out of the commitment and pledge their "fake" alliance to academia for a few years then end up entering private practice (at least in dermatology this is prevalent).

Case in point to be: https://sunnybrook.ca/team/member.asp?t=19&page=24071&m=526 among many many others.

[2018hopeful]

2 hours ago, psychiatry2017 said:

but the Saudi residents sign a contract with their countries, and go back to their home country right after their training. Their residency is funded by their country exclusively, by all means, they are like free labour for our Canadian hospitals. I don't think that they take  any CMG spots to be honest. 

Yes and no, I did an elective in Edmonton in neurology and found that a full half the residents were Saudi and a decent number were planning on staying in Canada after probably around 1/3 to 1/2

[PetiteAgour]

Not seeing how it affects CMG spots other than the fact that we have the manpower to train more residents, but not the funding from the Canadian government  I feel bad for both the CMG's and Saudi resident. Imagine training for 5 years, being used as free labour by the Canadian system, making friends in the program, moving family here, committing years of research and people still treat you like an outsider. I wonder how they select these candidates and if there is a pathway to citizenship?