deeman101 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I'll just say I use it myself and I find it very effective in helping my workout, especially since I'm mostly vegetarian. But I always get challenged about protein whey being a waste of money and an necessary strain on the body (to excrete it). I invite those who believe it doesn't work to show their logic and/or proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASMED Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Decent quality whey protein is just so expensive.....I mean you can get cheaper whey, but it apparently doesn't absorb as well in the digestive system and it tastes terrible. I've heard really good things about brands like "muscle milk". The customer review that I've read say that it really helps put on muscle mass - provided that you are working out regularly. I do wonder though how students can afford stuff like muscle milk. Just getting a month's supply is close to $100! That's more than $1000 per year. I'm still looking for some decent whey that's more in my price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASMED Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 sorry....double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Go to BB.com....meatheads there argue over stuff like that all the time. Every once in a while, there'll be some fake Biochem PhD busted, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewfieMike Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Although anecdotal, I believe you. I've worked out from a baseline level of about ~150 lbs with and w/o protein, and I really noticed a difference faster with the protein supps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman101 Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 No counterpoints from know-it-all premeds? LOL. I've really delved deep into the science behind these things, I don't see why they wouldn't work. And they certainly have so far for me. 2 weeks ago I was 145lbs but I (max 1 rep) bench 225lbs, deadlift 315lbs, and squat 245lbs. No way I could do that without protein supplements. Especially on a mostly veggie diet. I've heard good things about muscle milk but honestly I don't really trust the smaller supplements brands. There have been a few shady ones that have been exposed, so I'm sticking with the big brands in the hopes that they won't jeopardize their reputation but putting out crap. Plus some of them provide assays of their product for the general public to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbjones Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 In my opinion protein shakes are great as they are convenient and are cheaper in the long run compared to actual food. Those are two big advantages in my opinion. I tried taking protein shakes last summer. I wanted to just add mass and went from about 155 all the way up to about 168. But I found that the protein shakes weren't filling and I ended up just eating other filler foods too so it wasn't the cleanest bulk. And props to the bb.com reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I don't see why protein supps wouldn't work, except for their being absorption issues (not 100% sure about this just speculating). I think it might be better to just eat really high protein foods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I don't see why protein supps wouldn't work, except for their being absorption issues (not 100% sure about this just speculating). I think it might be better to just eat really high protein foods. Supplements are cheaper, though. A scoop of protein powder is what, about $1? A chicken breast is more like $3. So if you replace one chicken breast a day with PP, you've saved $60 over the course of the month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASMED Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I've heard good things about muscle milk but honestly I don't really trust the smaller supplements brands. There have been a few shady ones that have been exposed, so I'm sticking with the big brands in the hopes that they won't jeopardize their reputation but putting out crap. Plus some of them provide assays of their product for the general public to see. Which protein brands do you use? try trueprotein.com Thanks for the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman101 Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 protein supps are the same thing as food(except for the fact they have different absorption times). 1 chicken breast=1 protein shake=~30grams of protein. general guidelines are 1g of protein x BW(lbs). edit: those lifts are pretty damn easy to achieve without protein supps too. Its much easier to drink the shake than eat mass amounts of chicken. And like you said the absorption of whey (especially isolate) is much better. Those lifts are not easy to achieve if you weigh 145lbs and are trying to maintain ECs and GPA, LOL. I actually achieved them at 175lbs and cut weight down to 145lbs, and it took a lot of training just to keep my strength the same. So in essence my strength has been the same for a little more than a year. Now I'm bulking back up in weight to push for more strength before I starting cutting again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smile Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Supplements are cheaper, though. A scoop of protein powder is what, about $1? A chicken breast is more like $3. So if you replace one chicken breast a day with PP, you've saved $60 over the course of the month. Exactly. Protein supplements are supplementary to your regular diet. If you're not getting enough protein in your diet, then not only is a scoop of high quality protein cheaper but it will also help you stay under your daily caloric intake level. A scoop of 27 g of high quality isolate protein is about 120 calories. A chicken breast probably has more protein but at the cost of consuming significantly higher calories (and fats). Isolates (like Isoflex) also have great absorption times (so try to take them within 30 min after a workout). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSmith19 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 protein supps are the same thing as food(except for the fact they have different absorption times). 1 chicken breast=1 protein shake=~30grams of protein. general guidelines are 1g of protein x BW(lbs). edit: those lifts are pretty damn easy to achieve without protein supps too. At 145, no those aren't 'pretty damn easy to achieve' at all. But I do think you could have achieved that with no whey, but instead eat chicken. It's just that most people can stomach 200g of protein with a portion coming from a liquid source. And whoever pointed out bb.com is right. A great site if you want to learn a bit about weightlifting..or alot, but at the cost of sorted through the 15 year olds posting complete garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman101 Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I find protein shakes very filling. If I don't have time for a breakfast I just down a shake and leave. I usually use Optimum Nutrition isolates but right now I'm using IsoXP from NxCare (Canadian brand, support the economy!) just because it tastes so damn good. And its very high in protein content and low in everything else. These protein supplements are extracted from milk anyways, so its the equivalent of drinking an obscene amount of milk. No one is going to down 200g worth of protein in one go, but if you spread it out during the day its by far the easiest and least painful way of getting your protein (the shake, not the milk). BTW my more hardcore friend that practices Muay Thai is ~145lbs as well and benches 265lbs, deadlifts 435lbs and squats 315lbs. Not only does he have more time to put in, he also has to take creatine and nitric oxide supplements to reach his max weights (not to mention the usual gamut of vitamins and crap). So no, its not that easy at a lighter weight to gain massive strength. EDIT: Crap, NxCare is a subsidiary of NxLabs which is 'merican, nevermind. PVL is Canadian I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Supplements are cheaper, though. A scoop of protein powder is what, about $1? A chicken breast is more like $3. So if you replace one chicken breast a day with PP, you've saved $60 over the course of the month. Ah good point, I didn't think of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star1234 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 If I'm not mistaken, protein supplements have creatine in them too, which basically allow your muscles to work out longer before you start feeling the lactic acid burn. I could get into the whole pathway if you really want me to, but essentially if you use protein supplements and work out regularly, you should see an improvement because you are able to go that extra little bit further that you probably couldn't otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman101 Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Some protein supplements do have creatine. It is usually stated in the label. I tend to avoid those. I don't want to down regulate my endogenous creatine levels since I'd rather not be dependent on the stuff to maintain strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Why not just eat eggs, fish, and meat for protein? People lived for thousands of years without wonky supplements, and I'm sure at least a few of them were able to build muscle mass without taking pills out of a bottle. I also don't think that consuming creatine in excess is going to do anything. Short of taking it as an IV drip while exercising, it's not going to do anything. For that matter, feeling the lactic acid burn is something that will go away as you become more fit. Creatine reserves get used up in about 10 seconds immediately after ATP reserves have been exhausted (that takes 2 seconds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman101 Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 10 seconds is all the time needed to do a lift. People usually take rests between sets, so creatine is converted back to phosphocreatine. Does excess creatine work? In my experience, hell yes. Max strength goes up by 10-20% and it lets you do more sets & reps. My concern is that, from what I've heard from people that use it regularly, your body gets used to it and you don't feel the benefits anymore. Then when you stop using it your lifting performance just tanks for like 2 weeks until your body adjusts. Nitric oxides also work but it feels more like I'm getting super amped up or something. Kind of like getting amped on redbull, if you're sensitive to redbull in that way (for me redbull makes me sleepy). It would be great to take it before a football game, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I'll just say I use it myself and I find it very effective in helping my workout, especially since I'm mostly vegetarian. But I always get challenged about protein whey being a waste of money and an necessary strain on the body (to excrete it). I invite those who believe it doesn't work to show their logic and/or proof. I love seeing all the anecdotes in here from people who want to be physicians / scientists. How about someone show some double-blinded control trials? BASAL protein requirements are 0.86 g/kg of body weight. Thus, a 70 kg male needs about 60 g to maintain normal metabolic functions in the body. Let's say you wanted to gain 1 kg of muscle mass per week (a pretty extreme goal), then you would need 200 grams of extra protein per week since muscle is about 20% protein by mass. 200 grams over 7 days is an extra 28 grams/day. So you now need 88 grams instead of 60 grams to build an extra 1 kg of muscle mass per week. The average protein intake for a North American is 100 grams, without supplementation, which is far more than you need for this requirement. So really, from a theoretical POV there is no need for protein supplements. If you are not eating enough protein in a day, then I can see the need for extra supplementation, but not to the excess that some people are doing today. If you take into account the bioavailability of protein in your food, then again, you might need to consume a *bit* more. But as you alluded to, excess protein can lead to renal failure, so try not to overdo it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 It works. I basically did a cutting diet on it back in the day...All I ate was chicken breast, tuna, broccoli, flax/olive oil, and whey powder. A lot of protein came from whey powder. My theory was that I would obtain glucose from deamination so my body would expend a lot of resources (and jack up my uric acid levels) to acquire energy in hopes of creating a negative balance. I lost about 30 lbs in 2 months with a loss of 3 lbs of lean mass about (used calipers and the Jackson equation). I noticed significant improvements but again, I was still eating chicken breast and tuna everyday so hard to separate that. Of course I had meals that were just protein, so it it didn't work I'd probably have starved out. Of the 200 g of protein I had per day, probably 100 came from shakes? I don't recommend doing this. From personal experience creatine does work. It's not worth the damage to your kidneys, you can just see what it does in your water (hard rock like clumps due to poor solubility). With creatine I'd typically get 3 extra reps on the same weight while not on creatine. I think I just did one cycle wasn't worth it. You would also get dehydrated while on it, such that you'd get headaches. You'd also bloat and retain more water. Protein can be as cheap as 50 cents per scoop...decent quality concentrate. If you're anal, go for an isolate. That will run you about 50-100% more lol. It's just cheese really, the curding process needed to dump their wasteful bi-product and who better to feed it to than bodybuilders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Elevated uric acid >> uric acid crystal deposition = gout. No thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdad Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Leviathan is right. The average NA diet far exceeds daily protein recommendations. Protein and carbohydrate timing seem to be more important. I see nothing wrong with protein shakes. They are a great snack after a workout, or just part of a good breakfast. I haven't seen any good research showing ANY ergogenic benefit to taking more than about 0.9g/kg of protein per day. Even for heavy lifters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Didn't have that. I was lifting like 4-5 times a week. I think that protein had somewhere to go. I should have done blood work when on that diet LOL. My bench went up to 225 lbs at that point oddly enough. Normally you don't get stronger while cutting...I think I was at 185 lbs prior to. This was back 4 years ago. I'm weak now comparatively to where I should be, I got to 300 lbs max in November on a McDonald's diet for 4 months (I quit lifting for 2 years during the 4 year period due to some health issues (surprise!)). Right now I sit at around 200 lbs, I'm a short little ****er. Not using whey...just eating normal protein sources and not really controlling diet. I don't see as much progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylem29 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Anyone ever experience constipation or really dry & and difficult to pass stools while using whey? I have found I have needed to use half-scoops b/c of the above issues I've had... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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