Whey protein supplements. Really works or placebo?

[Octavius]

Anyone ever experience constipation or really dry & and difficult to pass stools while using whey?

 

I have found I have needed to use half-scoops b/c of the above issues I've had...

LOL I get something but not that. You need more fiber + water.

[Jochi1543]

Anyone ever experience constipation or really dry & and difficult to pass stools while using whey?

 

I have found I have needed to use half-scoops b/c of the above issues I've had...

 

I'm so glad we're discussing this....

[J.P.87]

http://www.ajcn.org.libaccess.lib.mcmaster.ca/cgi/reprint/89/1/161

 

http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca.libaccess.lib.mcmaster.ca/ppv/RPViewDoc?issn=1715-5312&volume=32&issue=6&startPage=1132

 

Two journal articles from the nutrition and metabolism lab that I worked at during undergrad. The focus of their research is muscle protein synthesis and resistance exercise. These two journals basically show that a very small amount (20g) of protein post-resistance exercise can significantly elevate the muscle protein synthetic rate for roughly 3 hours post-exercise.

 

Other findings from our lab (not published) compared the effect of different types of protein (whey vs casine) on muscle protein synthetic rate post- exercise and it was shown the ~20g of whey ingested after exercise stimulated it more above resting baseline than the casine

[Jochi1543]

 

Other findings from our lab (not published) compared the effect of different types of protein (whey vs casine) on muscle protein synthetic rate post- exercise and it was shown the ~20g of whey ingested after exercise stimulated it more above resting baseline than the casine

Doesn't caseine absorb way slower, though? They always recommend whey directly after exercise, anyway.

[deeman101]

Cool, so there is some scientific evidence. Thanks J.P. But I usually take twice that amount (40-45g) post workout. Is anyone aware of studies at higher protein intake values?

 

 

nope your wrong. and theres a big difference between survival intake and performance.

 

I agree it was an oversimplification.

[Jamer]

Over the last year I learned a lot from talking to professional body-builders/powerlifters who really know their stuff, and I'll say this: Yes, protein post-workout is good. But the most important thing is carbs to stimulate insulin release. Getting 1.0-1.5 grams of protein per kg of body mass (with 1 kg = 2.2 pounds) is about right for someone involved in relatively intense training, about 0.8 grams for someone more sedentary.

 

As far as supplements, almost everything you can get legally is a waste of money. Want protein? Go eat some real food. It is, for all intensive purposes, just as good. These guys who really know their **** about physical fitness take absolutely no supplments, aside from cycling on anabolic steroids.

 

Diet and a good routine are 100X more important than some stupid tub of protein

 

Edit: I read the thread

[deeman101]

No one is saying protein supplements magically help you gain mass with no effort put in otherwise. But the supplements do help if you are not an excessive protein eater to start with, and you regularly work out as well. And by regular workout, I don't mean go to the gym (complete with headband on), wave around 5lb weights for 20mins, and call it a day. I'd hazard a guess that most people are not excessively biased towards protein in their diet. And the average American diet is FAR from having the optimum ratio of protein to other nutrients in it.

 

Yes you can make do without supplements by really watching your diet. But its just easier and cheaper (as Jochi said) if you don't have to worry about optimum protein content for every meal.

[Jamer]

I'm aware. The OP was asking whether protein was worth it and I was stating that really, it isn't, along with every other legally purchased supp. You could argue for cheapness, but there's other ways other than chicken breasts of getting your protein needed.

[MSmith19]

please don't confuse bodybuilding with weightlifting.

weightlifting and bodybuilding are two completely different things.

Bodybuilding=Bodybuilding is the process of maximizing muscle hypertrophy; an individual who engages in this activity is referred to as a bodybuilder

Weightlifting=

 

Thanks for the clarification, I've been part of the weightlifting community for over 5 years. It's very likely that I know what I'm talking about, not to sound arrogant.

 

And BTW, a person that bodybuilds is without a doubt weightlifting. I use the term to refer to any sport that involves the activity.

 

Powerlifting or Olympic lifting is what you are refering to. At BB.com the forums cover all of those topics, plus sports lifting.

 

 

I think the bottom line is that whey supplementation is convenient and cheap. Sure, eating whole food is better but not everbody has the stomach, time or money to get 200g+ protein from steak and chicken.

[deeman101]

I AM the OP, lol. I started this thread to start a discussion on the topic, I didn`t ask for advice on whether to take it or not, since I`ve been taking it for 4 years and will probably continue taking it (barring any major revelations). I regularly talk about this to meatheads and it degenerates into grunting and showing off muscles and the like. So I wanted to learn more from those that have more credible knowledge.

 

And I concur with MSmith`s bottom line.

[DylanDK]

I'm a kin student at Mac, and have taken a nutrition course given by a proff who specializes in protein. Basically, if you consume 1.6g of protein/kg of body mass per day, that's all you need to maximally build muscle. Any less and you won't get top results, but any more and your wasting protein. Also, whey protein is not better than the protein you will find in milk, so if you're not lactose intolerant, it is more economical to just have a couple glasses of milk after working out (there is a little bit of whey protein in milk btw).

[smile]

I'm a kin student at Mac, and have taken a nutrition course given by a proff who specializes in protein. Basically, if you consume 1.6g of protein/kg of body mass per day, that's all you need to maximally build muscle. Any less and you won't get top results, but any more and your wasting protein. Also, whey protein is not better than the protein you will find in milk, so if you're not lactose intolerant, it is more economical to just have a couple glasses of milk after working out (there is a little bit of whey protein in milk btw).

 

What do you mean by your prof 'specializes in protein.' Is he a nutritionist, a molecular biologist or a biochemist? Anyway, I don't know enough about the case of whey vs casein, but I will say that a glass of milk has a lot more calories and fat/cholesterol than a scoop of protein. Besides, no one is arguing that you need an insane amount of protein in your diet. They're not replacing your regular diets - they're supplementing your diet.

 

There's a good article on whey vs casein here: http://www.nutritionexpress.com/showarticle.aspx?articleid=787 - Various research papers are cited and referenced.

[DylanDK]

He's a biochemist whose research specializes in protein (a lot of research on how taking it after exercise promotes muscle growth). The point I was making is that if you are getting 1.6g/kg/day, you don't need to supplement your diet with any expensive whey products.

[deeman101]

He's a biochemist whose research specializes in protein (a lot of research on how taking it after exercise promotes muscle growth). The point I was making is that if you are getting 1.6g/kg/day, you don't need to supplement your diet with any expensive whey products.

 

I kind of felt that as well. I didn't really think 1g:1lbs BW was really necessary. It just seems like a huge excess of protein. To stay on the safer side of renal failure, I'm limiting my protein intake to about 0.8g:1lbs BW with about 0.5g:1lbs BW coming from supplements.

 

 

And its really vague when you say this prof specializes in "protein". Thats like saying I specialize in "science".

[Guest BluePin]

Thanks for the clarification, I've been part of the weightlifting community for over 5 years. It's very likely that I know what I'm talking about, not to sound arrogant.

 

And BTW, a person that bodybuilds is without a doubt weightlifting. I use the term to refer to any sport that involves the activity.

 

Powerlifting or Olympic lifting is what you are refering to. At BB.com the forums cover all of those topics, plus sports lifting.

 

5 years, huh? It's highly unlikely that you know what you are talking about. Sorry, but it's very presumptuous to think you would know anything about anything after being "a part" of it for five years.

 

I have been actively training for over 19 years and certainly wouldn't propose that I "know what I'm talking about."

 

The person you were responding to was correct: Weightlifting refers to what you have called Olympic lifting, the terms are are often used synonymously, but weightlifting is the correct term for competing in the clean & jerk or snatch.

 

As the other person stated, BB'ing is the act of maximizing muscle hypertrophy and cannot be called a sport.

 

Regarding another subsequent post, RE: your prof stating 1.6g / KG / day...

I'm sure that they did tell you that, it's a "standard" intake level in nutritional theory. However, unless your prof has extensive experience in training high level athletes, he's just parroting what the "standard" is in the literature. And since there aren't any volume of relevant studies on it, it is just based on the accumulated conjecture of various "nutritional experts." What is relevant is that competitive strength athletes will routeinly ingest 1.5 - 2.5 g / LB / day... or roughly double to triple what you prof is suggesting. You can decide how applicable that may be to your situation, keeping in mind that would be an upper level for competitive strength athletes... which no one here is, or they wouldn't be asking questions here.

 

Regarding the original post, extra protein requirements to maximize strength development and muscular recovery are certainly not imaginary. However, I would suggest three things: 1) Be incisive with yourself about your training volume, loads, age, and resulting protein requirements. Bench pressing 1.5x BW 3x / week does not major requirements make. 2) If you find you do need extra protein in your diet to avoid limiting training gains, consider this: if your protein requirements are higher, your overall nutrient requirements are likely higher as well: food contains micro nutrients, but protein powder does not. 3)Experiment. The intake levels of others, or the "standard" intake levels will likely not apply to your situation. Play around until you find the optimal intake levels to support muscular recovery and / or growth.

 

A final though regarding cost: if you want to gain, try GOMAD-- Gallon Of Milk A Day... google around, you'll pull up some info.

[leviathan]

nope your wrong. and theres a big difference between survival intake and performance.

Can you actually provide a defense to your statement, besides saying "your[sic] wrong". I'm basing my own facts off what I learned in nutritional science courses, and it makes physiologic sense. The difference between basal requirements and performance intake (1 kg of muscle a WEEK) was explained by me. Does this make sense to you?

 

most world class athletes especially in the strength/power sports(e.g. sprinting, weightlifting, football, baseball, throwing, rugby etc...) eat about 1.5-2.0g of protein x BW(lbs) per day. 1g x BW(lbs) is also considered the very minimal.

That's an extreme amount of protein to be taking in. Far beyond anything you need. As I said in my first post, please post scientific evidence, not anecdotes about what world class athletes do. You're presumably a science student and should know better than that.

[Guest rpuff]

Anyone ever consider non-meat protein choices? Half a cup of cottage cheese has something ridiculous like 14g of protein, about a 100 calories and is dirt cheap. Milk has ~9g of protein per cup (plus sugars and carbs etc hence why choc milk is the greatest post workout snack invented) Plus you get calcium too. You can have lentils, tofu, etc. I agree 100% with Jamer, it's totally possible to get enough protein supplementation on diet alone, if broaden your options beyond meat.

[Guest BluePin]

please post scientific evidence, not anecdotes about what world class athletes do.

 

How would such anecdotal evidence not be relevant? For example, Coach X states that in 35 years of coaching weight lifters, performance falls off below 1.X g/ lb / day of protein ingestion....

 

Seems pretty applicable to me.

 

As to the "scientific evidence," there often isn't sufficient volume of it, in this field, to be able to make reliable conclusions. That's why there are so many competing theories out there. So, anecdotal evidence is often the best source.

 

As your post history would suggest you are a scientifically minded person, you may enjoy Robb Wolf's blog and his gym's newsletter (which costs $30/ yr). Robb has a background in research biochem.

[leviathan]

How would such anecdotal evidence not be relevant? For example, Coach X states that in 35 years of coaching weight lifters, performance falls off below 1.X g/ lb / day of protein ingestion....

I can see 4-5 confounding factors that remove any credibility from that 'experiment'.

 

As to the "scientific evidence," there often isn't sufficient volume of it, in this field, to be able to make reliable conclusions. That's why there are so many competing theories out there. So, anecdotal evidence is often the best source.

Anecdotes are sometimes nice jumping points to then start investigating something, but by themselves are usually useless. However, there is research out there well established on how much protein you need to maintain your body functions. From there using physiologic knowledge it *seems* like a 70 kg person would only need another ~25 grams of protein a day for extreme muscle building. Nevertheless the average 70 kg person is eating an excess of ~50 grams anyhow in his/her diet. So unless someone can either post research or some sort of physiologic explanation for why you need more, then there is no reason to believe otherwise.

[youngdad]

http://www.sfu.ca/~leyland/Kin143%20Files/SporstNutrition.pdf

 

Whats this? Some slides that some guy put together? I don't see any good references in this. Am I blind?

[ad19]

One only needs to search pubmed to find out that protein ingestion following resistance exercise significantly improves many factors whether it be strength, power, muscle cross-sectional area, protein expression, etc... Here are just a few papers I have found with a quick search on pubmed, although there are many more. Keep in mind that when they mention the control group in these studies they are consuming a normal diet so the only difference is the consumption of protein(whey) or not. This isn't saying that you could eat a steak following your workout and get the same results but whey protein is a supplement, and it is exactly that, supplementing the steak. So instead of eating a 7$ steak after every workout you can save your money and have a protein shake.

 

Acute and long-term effects of resistance exercise with or without protein ingestion on muscle hypertrophy and gene expression.

 

Hulmi JJ, Kovanen V, Selänne H, Kraemer WJ, Häkkinen K, Mero AA.

Amino Acids. 2008 Jul 27. [Epub ahead of print]

 

The effects of timed ingestion of high-quality protein before and after resistance exercise are not well known. In this study, young men were randomized to protein (n = 11), placebo (n = 10) and control (n = 10) groups. Muscle cross-sectional area by MRI and muscle forces were analyzed before and after 21 weeks of either heavy resistance training (RT) or control period. Muscle biopsies were taken before, and 1 and 48 h after 5 x 10 repetition leg press exercise (RE) as well as 21 weeks after RT. Protein (15 g of whey both before and after exercise) or non-energetic placebo were provided to subjects in the context of both single RE bout (acute responses) as well as each RE workout twice a week throughout the 21-week-RT. Protein intake increased (P </= 0.05) RT-induced muscle cross-sectional area enlargement and cell-cycle kinase cdk2 mRNA expression in the vastus lateralis muscle suggesting higher proliferating cell activation response with protein supplementation. Moreover, protein intake seemed to prevent 1 h post-RE decrease in myostatin and myogenin mRNA expression but did not affect activin receptor IIb, p21, FLRG, MAFbx or MyoD expression. In conclusion, protein intake close to resistance exercise workout may alter mRNA expression in a manner advantageous for muscle hypertrophy.[/Quote]

 

The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine.

 

Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Carey MF, Hayes A.

The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine.

 

Different dietary proteins affect whole body protein anabolism and accretion and therefore, have the potential to influence results obtained from resistance training. This study examined the effects of supplementation with two proteins, hydrolyzed whey isolate (WI) and casein ©, on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine levels during a 10 wk, supervised resistance training program. In a double-blind protocol, 13 male, recreational bodybuilders supplemented their normal diet with either WI or C (1.5 gm/kg body wt/d) for the duration of the program. Strength was assessed by 1-RM in three exercises (barbell bench press, squat, and cable pull-down). Body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry. Plasma glutamine levels were determined by the enzymatic method with spectrophotometric detection. All assessments occurred in the week before and the week following 10 wk of training. Plasma glutamine levels did not change in either supplement group following the intervention. The WI group achieved a significantly greater gain (P < 0.01) in lean mass than the C group (5.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 0.8 +/- 0.4 kg for WI and C, respectively) and a significant (P < 0.05) change in fat mass (-1.5 +/- 0.5 kg) compared to the C group (+0.2 +/- 0.3 kg). The WI group also achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group in each assessment of strength. When the strength changes were expressed relative to body weight, the WI group still achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group.[/Quote]

 

Resistance exercise with whey protein ingestion affects mTOR signaling pathway and myostatin in men.

 

Hulmi JJ, Tannerstedt J, Selänne H, Kainulainen H, Kovanen V, Mero AA.

J Appl Physiol. 2009 May;106(5):1720-9. Epub 2009 Mar 19

 

Signaling pathways sense local and systemic signals and regulate muscle hypertrophy. The effects of whey protein ingestion on acute and long-term signaling responses of resistance exercise are not well known. Previously untrained young men were randomized into protein (n = 9), placebo (n = 9), and control (n = 11) groups. Vastus lateralis (VL) muscle biopsies were taken before and 1 h and 48 h after a leg press of 5 x 10 repetitions [resistance exercise (RE)] and after 21 wk (2 times per week) of resistance training (RT). Protein (15 g of whey) or nonenergetic placebo was ingested before and after a single RE bout and each RE workout throughout the RT. The protein group increased its body mass and VL muscle thickness (measured by ultrasonography) already at week 10.5 (P < 0.05). At week 21, the protein and placebo groups had similarly increased their myofiber size. No changes were observed in the nonexercised controls. However, the phosphorylation of p70(S6K) and ribosomal protein S6 (rpS6) were increased at 1 h post-RE measured by Western blotting, the former being the greatest with protein ingestion. Mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) phosphorylation was increased after the RE bout and RT only in the protein group, whereas the protein ingestion prevented the post-RE decrease in phosphorylated eukaryotic initiation factor 4E binding protein 1 (p-4E-BP1). Akt phosphorylation decreased after RT, whereas no change was observed in phosphorylated eukaryotic elongation factor 2. A post-RE decrease in muscle myostatin protein occurred only in the placebo group. The results indicate that resistance exercise rapidly increases mTOR signaling and may decrease myostatin protein expression in muscle and that whey protein increases and prolongs the mTOR signaling response.[/Quote]

[The Law]

Anyone ever consider non-meat protein choices? Half a cup of cottage cheese has something ridiculous like 14g of protein, about a 100 calories and is dirt cheap. Milk has ~9g of protein per cup (plus sugars and carbs etc hence why choc milk is the greatest post workout snack invented) Plus you get calcium too. You can have lentils, tofu, etc. I agree 100% with Jamer, it's totally possible to get enough protein supplementation on diet alone, if broaden your options beyond meat.

 

Loblaws sells these blue menu chicken skewers that are about 90 calories for 2 skewers, and contain about 20 g of proteins. They're a bit more pricey though, but are really healthy. And hurray for ChocMilk.

[Jochi1543]

Loblaws sells these blue menu chicken skewers that are about 90 calories for 2 skewers, and contain about 20 g of proteins. They're a bit more pricey though, but are really healthy. And hurray for ChocMilk.

 

Law's been pitching Blue Menu to me, except for we don't have Loblaws here.

[The Law]

Law's been pitching Blue Menu to me, except for we don't have Loblaws here.

 

Blue Menu is the ****. I love it!! So much healthier, lost__in__space is also a fellow blue menu fan! They have so many blue menu items too, so it's not like you're stuck eating the same thing at all.

 

PS - this thread is getting intense. I think we need to all hug it out.

[deeman101]

LOL, when it comes to threads on reaching the absolute performance peak it will always get intense. I frequent drag racing and circuit racing forums a lot, they're waaayy more intense in their threads. We're serious about the dedication we put in.