Renumeration not that great actually

[aaronjw]

Reminds me of a time during undergrad when someone from Ivey Business School came to advertise their MBA program. Tuition is $80,000 for a one-year program. I asked the rep why it was worth so much more than basically any other degree, and he answered honestly: "It's not, but it's unregulated, so we can charge whatever we want as long as people are willing to pay."

 

Really gave me a different perspective on my tuition at the time. I always thought it was too much, but without government regulations and subsidies it's pretty crazy to think of how much worse it could have been.

 

My view of an MBA is that you're not paying for the education so much as you are the contacts you'll make a long the way.

[aaronjw]

I'm convinced the OP is a troll now.

[A-Stark]

Amusing how one wants a medical education free of charge so they can make $200K+ for the rest of their lives.

 

The previous generation had that benefit. Why should today's physicians go deeply in debt (while making no income) during training to finance the tax cuts that benefited older staff?

 

Even for undergrad degrees, we've long since passed the point where one could work in the summer and save enough to pay for school during the year. I'm unclear why we should consider high levels of student debt any kind of "good thing".

 

Of course, the banks like it, but I'm sure I would be a lot more disciplined about my spending if I had less credit.

[dazzle]

Amusing how one wants a medical education free of charge so they can make $200K+ for the rest of their lives.

 

if medical education is free the taxes are higher.

 

2 principles:

 

lower taxes to make the economy flourish. consequence: those who go to school need to borrow and go in debt

 

increase taxes so that people who go to school can do so comfortably and profit from similar social programs as everyone else. consequence: hit on spending in the economy

[aaronjw]

The previous generation had that benefit. Why should today's physicians go deeply in debt (while making no income) during training to finance the tax cuts that benefited older staff?

 

Even for undergrad degrees, we've long since passed the point where one could work in the summer and save enough to pay for school during the year. I'm unclear why we should consider high levels of student debt any kind of "good thing".

 

Gas also used to be $0.35/L, dozen eggs $0.91, milk $0.58/L, and you could buy a house for under $100K.

[Chamilt]

I've been meaning to post a thread/rant about all the entitled little ****s on here that are so concerned about "how much money" they will make in "insert specialty".

 

As an older student, and someone who as actually worked in the "real world" and went through the trials and tribulations of finding a decent job and earning a paycheque. It makes me want to tear my eyes out when I hear people say, "only 150 000". As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, this is over 3x the national average.

 

Further, if you make even a little more than that, say about 215 000. You are now in the top 1% of earners in Canada!!!!! Like WTF is wrong with you?!?!?!

 

Just because you have 200 000 grand in debt? Get over yourselves.

 

Go work a 9-5 job that you hate and make 30-60 000 grand a year for a year or two then come back and tell me how horrible it is to be lucky enough to pursue medicine and even have the potential to earn 200 -500 000 a year!!!

 

If most of our future patients read some of these threads they would be disgusted when they are living on welfare and don't complain about a thing!

 

As many people have said, if you are in medicine for the money you are in the wrong field and I do not want you as a colleague. Albeit this types of people will exist in any field.

 

I agree with adequate compensation and what "adequate" is clearly subject to debate. But I'm sick and tired of these premeds/medical students that think they are all going to live like movie/sports stars.

 

You are going to be what is likely the most respected profession in the entire world. Start acting like it.

 

I could go on and on, but I need to go see my psychiatrist who I don't look down upon because he is the lowest payed MD. He seems quite content with his career and life. Something to think about. It's been said a million times, Money does not buy you happiness.

 

Side note: I wrote that last sentence as I am watching Dragons Den and listening to Kevin Oleary go on one of his rants about how money rules all. Just adds fuel to the fire.

[hexonu]

OP needs a huge reality check. Your education is funded with tax payer dollars (if you live in Canada) you have no right to complain as your debt load could be much higher limiting medicine to the rich/elite. Also, it sounds like you're going into medicine for the wrong reasons. If you're looking for a higher return on your education try business in the private sector, there are thousands of dollars to be made there. Also as a physican you're in the top 1% in Canada so I don't see 180k as low at all. When I graduated I owed 65k in loans I paid it all off in a year earning 80k. All it takes is good budgeting skills.

[Orcamute]

So anyways,

 

Radiologists get paid like half a million a year right? Would they let me lease a civic with that salary?

[spontaneouscombustion]

Salaried psychiatrists make EXCELLENT money (I'm talking $~300k+ benefits) and have a very good lifestyle. Some of these salaried psychiatrists work 40 hours (or less) per week and use their hospital offices after-hours for their private practice, so they essentially have no overhead. You'll make less doing full-time fee-for-service due to all the no shows and unpaid work you do, but sessional fees and shift in OHIP billing help make up for that. Plus if you love what you do (and most psychiatrists do), you won't mind putting in some extra hours to earn a little bit more cash.

 

It can be a very rewarding and well-compensated career, and it has an excellent job market as well. You have to be the right type of personality to do it, but if you feel you'd be a good fit then I'd advise you to not worry about financial concerns - you will never have any.

[A-Stark]

Gas also used to be $0.35/L, dozen eggs $0.91, milk $0.58/L, and you could buy a house for under $100K.

 

So? The real tuition costs have risen far, far faster than inflation, and that's hardly limited to professional programs.

 

I've been meaning to post a thread/rant about all the entitled little ****s on here that are so concerned about "how much money" they will make in "insert specialty".

 

As an older student, and someone who as actually worked in the "real world" and went through the trials and tribulations of finding a decent job and earning a paycheque. It makes me want to tear my eyes out when I hear people say, "only 150 000". As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, this is over 3x the national average.

 

And it's not really that much if those are gross billings in private practice. Perhaps when physicians habitually have access to defined-benefit pension plans, extended health insurance, and other employment benefits, we can stop talking about money, but I'm not sure why it shouldn't matter. Everyone wants to optimize money, interest, and lifestyle, and considering potential remuneration is often as important as potential call responsibilities.

 

Further, if you make even a little more than that, say about 215 000. You are now in the top 1% of earners in Canada!!!!! Like WTF is wrong with you?!?!?!

 

Just because you have 200 000 grand in debt? Get over yourselves.

 

That would be $200k in debt with exactly zero equity. One can only assume so much debt, and that's an awful lot of your income as a resident going to interest. We would be much better off with lower tuition and correspondingly lower credit during med school. A $250k LOC is very favourable for the banks, but giving mostly young people with few responsibilities access to a lot of "free" money helps finance a lot of unnecessary consumption.

 

Go work a 9-5 job that you hate and make 30-60 000 grand a year for a year or two then come back and tell me how horrible it is to be lucky enough to pursue medicine and even have the potential to earn 200 -500 000 a year!!!

 

Go work a 7-6 job with nights and weekends for 5 years making $40-70k per year (and 80-100 hours per week) while paying interest on said $200k debt. Residency was a tougher slog a generation ago, but you weren't forking over $400-500 in interest payments every month.

 

As many people have said, if you are in medicine for the money you are in the wrong field and I do not want you as a colleague. Albeit this types of people will exist in any field.

 

Meh. Money matters. It's not about being in medicine "for the money", but to pretend that the bottom line doesn't matter when you're in practice is pretty out of touch.

 

I agree with adequate compensation and what "adequate" is clearly subject to debate. But I'm sick and tired of these premeds/medical students that think they are all going to live like movie/sports stars.

 

Nope. The most I expect is not to be screwed over repeatedly by tuition and professional fees. It's too late for the former, and we'll see what you say when you drop a few thousand for CaRMS and electives, to say nothing of ~$1000 for the LMCC. In what other profession is it normal to travel around the country at personal expense for weeks at a time, and then fork over several hundred dollars simply to apply to training positions? Then you spend another several hundred (or much more) to fly around the country for interviews (occasionally programs will pay for your parking!), all so you can submit an electronic ranking to a system which can't even provide sufficient bandwidth for the one particular surge in demand in early March? And god help you if you don't match, because the leftover positions are typically undesirable and/or hyper-competitive. Aaand if you're not happy with where you ended up, the system is designed to make switching exceptional and difficult.

 

It's ridiculous and the costs have absolutely skyrocketed, far beyond inflation. To some extent, this isn't such a big deal for physicians, but there is far too much "establishment" acceptance of high tuition fees. It is really much worse in law and business.

 

I could go on and on, but I need to go see my psychiatrist who I don't look down upon because he is the lowest payed MD. He seems quite content with his career and life. Something to think about. It's been said a million times, Money does not buy you happiness.

 

It doesn't buy you happiness but it certainly helps.

[ldnk]

Ah okay making 4 times the average salary is not that great....gotcha

 

Also the fact that you can incorporate yourself is a big ++

 

You certainly won't be incorporating at 180K. That would be below the threshold to make it worthwhile.

[rmorelan]

You certainly won't be incorporating at 180K. That would be below the threshold to make it worthwhile.

 

Ahhhh I am not really sure that is right - I can think of a bunch of very powerful reasons to incorporate at that level. Income splitting, writing off expenses, tax deferred investments, and some insurance strategies come to mind

[Chamilt]

K i'll admit I'm computer retarded so I i'll do this the old fashioned way.

 

A-Stark:

 

Ok so maybe the lowest income physician who is working full time in canada is making a NET ~125 000 a year. This is still a ridiculous amount of money compared to most people and can live a happy, life and save enough for retirement if you aren't buying a million dollar house and driving luxury cars.

 

Well I did a 10 month UNPAID internship for 1500 hours to be an RD and make 50-70 000 a year. So I actually look at residency as pretty decent pay in regards to what you WILL be making a few years after that.

 

Look at this way. How many people do a 3 or 4 year college or university program and start making 6 figures by the time they are 30? Not many. it's just like any profession. If you do your time and work your ass off by the time you are 25-45 you are making 100 000 + Which most people in this country would die to make.

 

I'm guessing you are from a metropolitan area, TO? VAncouver? Montreal? Money means less when you find a place that brings you peace.

 

A-Stark

"Nope. The most I expect is not to be screwed over repeatedly by tuition and professional fees. It's too late for the former, and we'll see what you say when you drop a few thousand for CaRMS and electives, to say nothing of ~$1000 for the LMCC. In what other profession is it normal to travel around the country at personal expense for weeks at a time, and then fork over several hundred dollars simply to apply to training positions? Then you spend another several hundred (or much more) to fly around the country for interviews (occasionally programs will pay for your parking!), all so you can submit an electronic ranking to a system which can't even provide sufficient bandwidth for the one particular surge in demand in early March? And god help you if you don't match, because the leftover positions are typically undesirable and/or hyper-competitive. Aaand if you're not happy with where you ended up, the system is designed to make switching exceptional and difficult.

 

It's ridiculous and the costs have absolutely skyrocketed, far beyond inflation. To some extent, this isn't such a big deal for physicians, but there is far too much "establishment" acceptance of high tuition fees. It is really much worse in law and business"

 

This paragraph oozes with entitlement. Fees are fees. Have you ever been on the other side of the coin? Worked in administration? I know most of them are money hungry idiots, but you sound like you would fit right in. Deal with costs and get where you want to go, it will pay off in the end if this is what you want.

 

If you are so passionate about the rising costs of tuition and fees, then go into advocacy and politics.

 

 

 

Well if making figures isn't enough for you to be happy then I really just feel sorry for you and any patients that you council.

[Laika]

Perhaps when physicians habitually have access to defined-benefit pension plans, extended health insurance, and other employment benefits, we can stop talking about money, but I'm not sure why it shouldn't matter.

 

I haven't personally looked into those issues, but was told by someone who has researched it that all of those benefits could be purchased privately by a physician's corporation. If most physicians don't have them, it's because they choose not to, not because they are not available to them.

 

This person was trying to weigh two job offers: one salaried, where incorporation was not possible, and one contract where it was. She discovered that much of the financial advantage of incorporation disappeared when the cost of separately purchasing the benefits was taken into account. (Yes, of course being your own employee gives you the flexibility to decide which benefits you actually want or need.)

[A-Stark]

Well I did a 10 month UNPAID internship for 1500 hours to be an RD and make 50-70 000 a year. So I actually look at residency as pretty decent pay in regards to what you WILL be making a few years after that.

 

Look at this way. How many people do a 3 or 4 year college or university program and start making 6 figures by the time they are 30? Not many. it's just like any profession. If you do your time and work your ass off by the time you are 25-45 you are making 100 000 + Which most people in this country would die to make.

 

Well I did a 55 week core clerkship (with electives and another core rotation yet to come) during which I received a stipend that admittedly lessened my debt slightly. How much call did you do in your internship? Any rounding at 6am? Overnights at the hospital 1-2 times per week? Just as long as we're comparing notes.

 

You're right that physicians do well. They (we) also pay taxes commensurate with that income bracket, even with incorporation.

 

Most people don't want to work 60 hours a week or deal with sick people or blood or any other bodily fluids.

 

I'm guessing you are from a metropolitan area, TO? VAncouver? Montreal? Money means less when you find a place that brings you peace.

 

No. I come from a smaller community that probably 95% of the people on this site. I live in a smaller city.

 

This paragraph oozes with entitlement. Fees are fees. Have you ever been on the other side of the coin? Worked in administration? I know most of them are money hungry idiots, but you sound like you would fit right in. Deal with costs and get where you want to go, it will pay off in the end if this is what you want.

 

If you are so passionate about the rising costs of tuition and fees, then go into advocacy and politics.

 

What other side of the coin? CaRMS couldn't even ensure their servers were working on match day, and a hundred odd people were told they hadn't matched when they had. Maybe you don't get what that means or why people would rightly resent spending $500 simply to apply for residency positions or having to spend thousands on electives and interviews.

 

Well if making figures isn't enough for you to be happy then I really just feel sorry for you and any patients that you council.

 

I'm not in psych. I am not at all dissatisfied about future income, but I resent the opportunity cost of all the debt I'm servicing. Paying it off is comparatively trivial, but I'm clear why it's the expectation that we should graduate with debt levels 3-4 times the starting salary of PGY-1s.

[ploughboy]

You certainly won't be incorporating at 180K. That would be below the threshold to make it worthwhile.

 

Not sure what you're basing this on. It would almost certainly be worthwhile to incorporate at an income level even lower than that.

[rmorelan]

I haven't personally looked into those issues, but was told by someone who has researched it that all of those benefits could be purchased privately by a physician's corporation. If most physicians don't have them, it's because they choose not to, not because they are not available to them.

 

This person was trying to weigh two job offers: one salaried, where incorporation was not possible, and one contract where it was. She discovered that much of the financial advantage of incorporation disappeared when the cost of separately purchasing the benefits was taken into account. (Yes, of course being your own employee gives you the flexibility to decide which benefits you actually want or need.)

 

That assumes you have a choice of course between salary with benefits or incorporate as a company - often in medicine you don't. The choice is sole proprietorship or incorporate - you are going to be paid one way or the other as a fee for service or fee per patient model

[uwodesperate]

This question might be a very stupid one so I apologize in advance but do you get some sort of stipend during clerkship?

[Real Beef]

This question might be a very stupid one so I apologize in advance but do you get some sort of stipend during clerkship?

 

Not a stupid question. In Ontario you get $9000 in fourth year. NOSM has an agreement with the OMA to also get a $9000 stipend in 3rd year due to the necessity to travel, but I dont think it is usual to get a stipend in 3rd year at other schools.

 

Beef

[rmorelan]

Not a stupid question. In Ontario you get $9000 in fourth year. NOSM has an agreement with the OMA to also get a $9000 stipend in 3rd year due to the necessity to travel, but I dont think it is usual to get a stipend in 3rd year at other schools.

 

Beef

 

I heard you got it at Mac as well (some one from Mac want to confirm?)

 

It is a nice bursary from the OMA - it has nothing to do with the work you are doing in clerkship I guess in reality, but it feels a bit like you are getting "paid"

[uwodesperate]

I like money $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[mcater2006]

I don't really care how much I get remunerated since I have no debt.

[fred245]

if medical education is free the taxes are higher.

 

2 principles:

 

lower taxes to make the economy flourish. consequence: those who go to school need to borrow and go in debt

 

increase taxes so that people who go to school can do so comfortably and profit from similar social programs as everyone else. consequence: hit on spending in the economy

 

Exactly. People love talking about lower tuition, free this, free that...what the f*** is the money coming from?

[ralk]

Exactly. People love talking about lower tuition, free this, free that...what the f*** is the money coming from?

 

Realistically? Physician compensation. If doctors' take home pay went down by 5%, that would easily cover the cost of tuition for med school (heck, 2% would probably do it). And that's before considering reduced costs to the system in the way of lower governmental grants/loans.

 

We've set up a system that says we take on a ton of debt and then have the means to pay it back later; if we changed things around just a little bit, we'd be able to avoid the debt in the first place and we'd still have a very healthy salary. There'd be less money in the later years, but far more early on, when it has a much greater impact on our career and lifestyle.

[aKGDH]

so don't do psych.

 

go into rads. ophtho. derm. nuclear medicine.