Canada vs America for MD

[wasteland]

Hey everyone, 

If I was offered admission to an American MD program, would it be worth attending an American school if I am offered admission to a Canadian program?

[Meridian]

I remember your other recent post with your GPA.  You have done very well to achieve that Offer.  If you can afford the +$400K  you will need to attend a US Medical school then keep that opportunity available as long as you can.  How long can you wait until you need to accept ?  If you can, see how Memorial interview pans out - but don't pass by that US opportunity without something else firmly in hand.  You may never see another offer again. I dont say that specifically about you - but anyone with a Med offer should not pass it by.  Congrats

 

[wasteland]

On 2017-10-12 at 10:04 PM, Meridian said:

I remember your other recent post with your GPA.  You have done very well to achieve that Offer.  If you can afford the +$400K  you will need to attend a US Medical school then keep that opportunity available as long as you can.  How long can you wait until you need to accept ?  If you can, see how MUN interview pans out - but don't pass by that US opportunity without something else firmly in hand.  You may never see another offer again. I dont say that specifically about you - but anyone with a Med offer should not pass it by.  Congrats

 

Would it be worth it to bail on this acceptance in the event that a Canadian school offers admission? I would be eternally grateful to attend any medical school in North America, but in the event that I have options to choose from, which should I go for? 

[bearded frog]

If you want to practice in Canada there isn't really an advantage to a US residency. It will be easier to do residency in Canada and cheaper to do medical school in Canada. I would not worry too much about research opportunities in medical school unless you plan on doing a MD/PHD or a masters during medical school, because you won't have much time for more than basic research projects. If you are only accepted to the US school this year, take it.

[wasteland]

1 minute ago, bearded frog said:

If you want to practice in Canada there isn't really an advantage to a US residency. It will be easier to do residency in Canada and cheaper to do medical school in Canada. I would not worry too much about research opportunities in medical school unless you plan on doing a MD/PHD or a masters during medical school, because you won't have much time for more than basic research projects. If you are only accepted to the US school this year, take it.

How does residency matching work in Canada? Is it based on exam scores/grades/another objective measure of capability?

[bearded frog]

It's based on your med school transcript, dean's letter, letters of recommendations, CV, research, etc. It's pretty much the same system as in the US except there's no USMLE standardized exams, but you can count all the medical schools on your fingers and toes so programs know how students from each school fare relatively, and there is no need for a standardized exam to provide an external measure.

[indefatigable]

47 minutes ago, bearded frog said:

It's based on your med school transcript, dean's letter, letters of recommendations, CV, research, etc. It's pretty much the same system as in the US except there's no USMLE standardized exams, but you can count all the medical schools on your fingers and toes so programs know how students from each school fare relatively, and there is no need for a standardized exam to provide an external measure.

I'd say the MLE+electives/CV+reputation is pretty much the basis of US matching - to match well there you need all three, but especially the first two.  I thought in Canada all programs were considered 'equal' from a reputation point of view, but it seems what you're saying is some are more equal than others.  Sure - there are a few Canadian schools that are known in the US and therefore would stand a better chance of matching there, but I didn't think this was how Canadian matching worked - but, maybe I was wrong.  And I thought virtually every med school transcripts was P with similar dean's letters as well.  

 As far as I know from other threads, UdeMontreal students have the strongest results on the LMCC - maybe this is what you're referring to?  

[somebowdy]

51 minutes ago, bearded frog said:

It's based on your med school transcript, dean's letter, letters of recommendations, CV, research, etc. It's pretty much the same system as in the US except there's no USMLE standardized exams, but you can count all the medical schools on your fingers and toes so programs know how students from each school fare relatively, and there is no need for a standardized exam to provide an external measure.

Aren't most (all?) schools P/F?

[indefatigable]

9 minutes ago, somebowdy said:

Aren't most (all?) schools P/F?

A couple of schools - Montreal and ULaval still have pre-clinical grades but not for rotations.  Sherbrooke is phasing them out.  

[Edict]

If you go to the US its easier to match to US. Main reason is no one in Canada wants to give up their Canadian residency chances and applying to both schools is really tough, its already enough work doing one but to try to match to both is doable but you won't match as well. 

[Edict]

9 hours ago, calcan said:

I'd say the MLE+electives/CV+reputation is pretty much the basis of US matching - to match well there you need all three, but especially the first two.  I thought in Canada all programs were considered 'equal' from a reputation point of view, but it seems what you're saying is some are more equal than others.  Sure - there are a few Canadian schools that are known in the US and therefore would stand a better chance of matching there, but I didn't think this was how Canadian matching worked - but, maybe I was wrong.  And I thought virtually every med school transcripts was P with similar dean's letters as well.  

 As far as I know from other threads, UdeMontreal students have the strongest results on the LMCC - maybe this is what you're referring to?  

Reputation depends strongly on the program you are applying to. Reputation matters less so than location for a lot of people, so location is pretty important. A lot of people by the time they graduate medical schools have put down some sort of roots. 

[wasteland]

2 hours ago, Edict said:

If you go to the US its easier to match to US. Main reason is no one in Canada wants to give up their Canadian residency chances and applying to both schools is really tough, its already enough work doing one but to try to match to both is doable but you won't match as well. 

Yeah there's also issues with the Canadian curriculum not being as MLE focused + problems acquiring visa in time for starting residency, so I wouldn't try matching to both.

 

11 hours ago, calcan said:

A couple of schools - Montreal and ULaval still have pre-clinical grades but not for rotations.  Sherbrooke is phasing them out.  

12 hours ago, bearded frog said:

It's based on your med school transcript, dean's letter, letters of recommendations, CV, research, etc. 

To clarify, are most Canadian schools P/F or are program directors able to see grades/percentile ranks? I know some American schools are "P/F" or on a similarly vague graduated system, but the actual grades are recorded and made available during the match process; so in reality, it's not actually a P/F system in that your actual grades do end up being relevant. 

[InstantRamen]

51 minutes ago, wasteland said:

Yeah there's also issues with the Canadian curriculum not being as MLE focused + problems acquiring visa in time for starting residency, so I wouldn't try matching to both.

 

To clarify, are most Canadian schools P/F or are program directors able to see grades/percentile ranks? I know some American schools are "P/F" or on a similarly vague graduated system, but the actual grades are recorded and made available during the match process; so in reality, it's not actually a P/F system in that your actual grades do end up being relevant. 

At my school, faculty knows your marks, but they are not released to residency programs. Perhaps ask about the policies to see when you gain acceptance.

[indefatigable]

On 2017-10-13 at 8:40 AM, Edict said:

Reputation depends strongly on the program you are applying to. Reputation matters less so than location for a lot of people, so location is pretty important. A lot of people by the time they graduate medical schools have put down some sort of roots. 

Thanks - I understand what you're saying and I agree with your point.  My concern was that BeardedFrog was basically saying that some schools have better reputations than others (e.g. the Canadian 'Ivy Leagues'), and that this is taken into consideration when matching, to advantage students from those schools (in lieu of actually writing a standardized exam, since the results would be predictable in advance).  It's a nice way to eliminate a whole bunch of people from contention with no real evidence that this is the case, but does kind of go against the spirit of CMG and CaRMS.  

[bearded frog]

I did not mean that schools are eliminated wholeheartedly. I mean that each school's evaluation technique is a known quantity relative to each other. IE an "this student exceeded expectations" from school X is equivalent to "87%" at school Y. So while some schools might have a reputation of all their graduates having glowing transcripts, programs understand which ones do and consider everything relatively, which has the effect of making the playing field level, and actually increases the ability of star candidates at some schools to shine.

[indefatigable]

I understand what you're saying and this could make sense at an undergraduate level possibly, but I thought that since almost all med schools are on "P/F", no grading information is really passed along (and sometimes not even available).  In any case, there's a divergence with US schools, since from what I saw of residency selection criteria, go much more on MLE (standardized test) and rotation performance and much less so on pre-clinical grades.  

[wasteland]

What are your thoughts on practicing in Canada vs the US? 

[bearded frog]

On 10/14/2017 at 7:40 PM, wasteland said:

What are your thoughts on practicing in Canada vs the US? 

That's way too wide a topic to answer that generally, and a lot of it will be personal preference anyway. If you have specific questions about US vs canada I can try answering though.

[Bambi]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎14 at 10:40 PM, wasteland said:

What are your thoughts on practicing in Canada vs the US? 

Canada is a safer place to raise a family, excellent medical schools that are cost effective, I wouldn't practice in US, defensive medicine to protect yourself from lawsuits, high malpractice cost due to litigation and high judgments. If accepted only in US, accept but if accepted in both countries, I would opt for Canada.

[displayname]

I have some friends who are MDs in the US now (Canadian citizens). They say US is better for multiple reasons including job security but they may just be greedy plus I know them and they like the craziness of American big cities. 

[Coronaxtra]

On 2017-10-14 at 9:40 PM, wasteland said:

What are your thoughts on practicing in Canada vs the US? 

It comes down to personal preference imo. I recently made the decision to move down to the US with my brother (MD) as our green cards came through. I feel operating a small business in the US is much better seeing the opportunities and low tax rates (especially with a republican government) but everyone's opinion will differ. Do what's best for you and think short-term and long-term!