A bad match

[robben04]

Hello all, 

I am currently in a very unenviable position, but I'll make a long story short. 

I'm a first year resident at McGill (I'm not going to say which program because I want to remain anonymous). 

In CaRMS 2019 the program's description stated that French is not a requirement but is an asset. Given this, despite having zero French, I still applied. There was no screening for French fluency involved in the admission process. In my interview for the program I was asked, "parlez-vous le francais?" to which I responded with the French version of "I do not speak French but I am excited to learn," and then I immediately switched back to English. I presumed that if the program did not want an anglophone resident then they would not rank me and that McGill was probably well-versed in dealing with anglophone residents from elsewhere in Canada. With this in mind and thinking that it might be cool to live in Montreal and that McGill is reputed to be a very good medical school, I ranked this program first and I matched here.

Over the summer I first spoke with our admin person. Upon learning that I don't speak French she exclaimed, "What do you mean you don't speak French? It's a program requirement! How are you going to make it through your rotations?" Upon starting residency things went from bad to worse. Numerous individuals told me that a mistake had been made and I am here in error. After I learned this, I thought that I would be in this program for a matter of weeks until things were "sorted out." It has now been six months. Given these circumstances my PGME has approved me for an expedited transfer. This means that as soon as a program agrees to take me I can leave, without waiting for the new academic year. However, this is essentially meaningless because the other programs within Canada don't accept transfers until after the 2nd iteration. This means that I will be entering the 2nd iteration of CaRMS and I will most likely be in this program for at least another six months. 

I know that because I ranked McGill, I did this to myself to some degree. 

Thanks for any input.

 

[JohnGrisham]

Have you already started contacting other FM programs? Best to contact programs directly, in particular your home medical school and as well some less desirable programs to see if theres any spots open for transfer. Explain your situation more clearly and succinctly than above though. Take responsibility but don't be too long winded, or put your program in a bad light either. Also make sure not to shed any doubt on your academic abilities, or that you are struggling in the current program. Frame it more as your language barrier is less than optimal etc.

Are you otherwise on track to finish your training if you are unable to transfer? can't they put you in the  most english stream possible? It was my understanding that there are streams at McGill where you truly can get away with minimal english.

How much french have you learned since july? 

 

[LostLamb]

FYI, you identified your program in another thread. 
might want to edit that...

 

good luck!!

[robben04]

Hey thanks for your reply, 

Yes I have been contacting other programs. They all strongly urge you to do so through your own PGME office. So I personally contacted the ones that I'm more interested in. I had some hope in U of C because initially they were saying they will consider external transfers come January. Now in a follow-up email they are saying something about there being a vote about whether they will be changing this to after 2nd iteration or not, so my hope has diminished. My home medical school told my PGME office not until after 2nd iteration. I sent them a personal email today and haven't heard anything yet. But pretty much the response I have received is "after 2nd iteration."

Yes I am currently on track academically. I managed to have the program "accommodate" me by giving me english-speaking patients up to now. They say this accommodation will end in another four months at which time I'm expected to just manage unilingual francophone patients. 

I am in the most English stream. That was my understanding too. Even in the most english stream a solid 1/3 of your patients will not be able to speak English. 

Since July I have learned some French. It's really hard for me to answer that question. I can understand the gist of the things. I would say I understand 40 percent of what I hear. Speaking is more challenging. I had initially asked for my program's support in attending a French course - specifically, I asked that I have one evening per week consistently protected so that I could attend a course. There was no program backing in this and so essentially I was still scheduled for call on these evenings and I missed enough of the course that I had to quit it.

I do take responsibility for ranking McGill first based on my own presumptions. I should have verified the specifics. However, their program description explicitly stated "French is an asset" (they have since modified this so it's more clear, but it's still not that clear).

I don't understand how a program could do this to a person, inform them once they arrived for their residency that they didn't meet the program requirements and matched in error, and despite this the CaRMS contract still stands. I have absolutely no rights in this situation. 

 

[hero147]

 

What family med stream are you in? CLSC metro? I am also a resident at McGill and an anglophone. What I have noticed thus far is that yeah there's definitely a lot more francophone only patients than you would expect fromn what they put on their CaRMS website. But it seems like most people are able to pick up a working proficiency in about a year and a half, it's actually quite remarkable. There are also many residents who speak only english or their native language who have completed residency successfully at McGill so don't worry, you are not the first. It also helps to find co-residents who are in your situation and are facign the same issue. (most of my friends I have made inr esidency thus far actually dont speak french).

[robben04]

On 12/6/2019 at 7:30 PM, hero147 said:

 

What family med stream are you in? CLSC metro? I am also a resident at McGill and an anglophone. What I have noticed thus far is that yeah there's definitely a lot more francophone only patients than you would expect fromn what they put on their CaRMS website. But it seems like most people are able to pick up a working proficiency in about a year and a half, it's actually quite remarkable. There are also many residents who speak only english or their native language who have completed residency successfully at McGill so don't worry, you are not the first. It also helps to find co-residents who are in your situation and are facign the same issue. (most of my friends I have made inr esidency thus far actually dont speak french).

 

[ellorie]

It’s awful that you’re going through this  I have to say that when I interviewed at McGill in my specialty, I told them that I spoke no French, and they told me that it “wasn’t a problem” and that there would “always be medical students to translate or something”. I think their attitude has changed towards being more upfront that it’s actually a huge barrier but I also think that some programs do misrepresent the ease of being an anglophone in Montreal. 
 

I thought that this would be untenable in psychiatry so I luckily ranked it very low. But if I hadn’t I could very easily have been in the situation you are. It’s absurd to me that they wouldn’t protect time for you to take a course. 

[robben04]

On 12/6/2019 at 8:15 PM, ellorie said:

It’s awful that you’re going through this  I have to say that when I interviewed at McGill in my specialty, I told them that I spoke no French, and they told me that it “wasn’t a problem” and that there would “always be medical students to translate or something”. I think their attitude has changed towards being more upfront that it’s actually a huge barrier but I also think that some programs do misrepresent the ease of being an anglophone in Montreal. 
 

I thought that this would be untenable in psychiatry so I luckily ranked it very low. But if I hadn’t I could very easily have been in the situation you are. It’s absurd to me that they wouldn’t protect time for you to take a course. 

Thanks for your sympathy. I see that you're in psychiatry.. apparently the psychiatry program here now requires proficient French (which is kind of a no brainer). But then so does the program I'm in and I fell through the cracks. Most of the programs here still don't require any level of French. It's absolutely a tremendous barrier each and every day. And then on top of that you get abused for not speaking French when you never said that you did. I strongly believe that McGill needs to move into the Quebec pool. 

[Lactic Folly]

I agree, this is very unfortunate and sorry to hear about your situation. Prior to my match, I asked around about McGill and was only told that the Saudi residents were managing without a background in French...

[LittleDaisy]

Hey I am so sorry to hear your experience.

There are two solutions to the current problem: 1) Apply to FM programs through second iteration of CaRMS--> given that you are in FM already,  you could perhaps just start PGY2 in July 2020?  There are usually leftover spots for FM, and given they have distinct spots for IMGs and CMGs in second round now, it works to your favour!

2) Stay put and finish your FM residency at McGill. I know a few unilingual Anglophone residents who managed to survive throughout residency. In Family Medicine, it's different as the patients assume that you are their primary caregiver. 

Unfortunately, a lot of patients show up to McGill-affiliated hospitals and clinics expecting to be treated in French, which is not the same for English-speaking patients in Quebec, it's definitely a double standard. 

[JohnGrisham]

3 hours ago, Lactic Folly said:

I agree, this is very unfortunate and sorry to hear about your situation. Prior to my match, I asked around about McGill and was only told that the Saudi residents were managing without a background in French...

Probably because their all in surgical specialties where the patient is knocked out

[JohnGrisham]

Honestly, if it was me, I would be getting a lawyer. Sounds drastic, but if they aren't accommodating you, then it's time to lawyer up. The confines of CaRMS is essentially holding you hostage and limiting prospects of transfer, so you should make them accountable for their end of the contract also. Demand protected time to learn french, do your best to self-learn as well, and keep doing well academically. 

[1D7]

Lawyer would be my last resort. Other programs may get spooked if they hear about taking this case to legal.

 

[robben04]

15 minutes ago, 1D7 said:

Lawyer would be my last resort. Other programs may get spooked if they hear about taking this case to legal.

 

I'm trying as hard as I can to avoid getting a lawyer. I will try all other avenues before doing that. 

[robben04]

8 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Honestly, if it was me, I would be getting a lawyer. Sounds drastic, but if they aren't accommodating you, then it's time to lawyer up. The confines of CaRMS is essentially holding you hostage and limiting prospects of transfer, so you should make them accountable for their end of the contract also. Demand protected time to learn french, do your best to self-learn as well, and keep doing well academically. 

So what actually is their end of the contract? Because I haven't been able to figure this out. Like what do they owe me and what are my rights? The PGME dean of resident affairs says that I have a right to a positive learning experience while at McGill, whatever that means. It definitely helps to have the PGME on my side. 

[hero147]

There are Saudi/International residents not just in surgery but also in primary care specialties including family medicine and pediatrics who do get through residency just fine. And even the surgical specialties have clinic where they often have to deal with francophone-only patients. Honestly, my advice would be to try to transfer if you can (which will be difficult as your funding is with Quebec) but if you can't, family medicine is only 2 years. Maybe try learning some French or ask for a translator/nurse at your clinic for those 1/3 of patients that only speak French. Plus, when you're off service in the hospital, its much easier to find someone who can translate for you. When you do your electives try to aim for a more anglophone community if you can.

Also, it seems like you know people who are in your situation, maybe ask if they have any advice or words of wisdom.

[GH0ST]

On 12/6/2019 at 5:09 PM, robben04 said:

Hello all, 

I am currently in a very unenviable position, but I'll make a long story short. 

I'm a first year resident at McGill (I'm not going to say which program because I want to remain anonymous). 

In CaRMS 2019 the program's description stated that French is not a requirement but is an asset. Given this, despite having zero French, I still applied. There was no screening for French fluency involved in the admission process. In my interview for the program I was asked, "parlez-vous le francais?" to which I responded with the French version of "I do not speak French but I am excited to learn," and then I immediately switched back to English. I presumed that if the program did not want an anglophone resident then they would not rank me and that McGill was probably well-versed in dealing with anglophone residents from elsewhere in Canada. With this in mind and thinking that it might be cool to live in Montreal and that McGill is reputed to be a very good medical school, I ranked this program first and I matched here.

Over the summer I first spoke with our admin person. Upon learning that I don't speak French she exclaimed, "What do you mean you don't speak French? It's a program requirement! How are you going to make it through your rotations?" Upon starting residency things went from bad to worse. Numerous individuals told me that a mistake had been made and I am here in error. After I learned this, I thought that I would be in this program for a matter of weeks until things were "sorted out." It has now been six months. Given these circumstances my PGME has approved me for an expedited transfer. This means that as soon as a program agrees to take me I can leave, without waiting for the new academic year. However, this is essentially meaningless because the other programs within Canada don't accept transfers until after the 2nd iteration. This means that I will be entering the 2nd iteration of CaRMS and I will most likely be in this program for at least another six months. 

I know that because I ranked McGill, I did this to myself to some degree. I guess my question is whether anybody knows of residents who have been successful in moving from one family medicine program to another, through either a program transfer or 2nd iteration. 

Thanks for any input.

 

You don't theoretically need to wait... reach out to the PGME deans of all the schools and send feelers for wanting to leave. 

They can have an idea that you want to transfer and you can get things set up before waiting for the R1 1st iteration match. 

Don't bother lawyering up until you get out... just focus all your efforts on getting out asap.

- G

 

[Dr. JJ]

13 hours ago, robben04 said:

So what actually is their end of the contract? Because I haven't been able to figure this out. Like what do they owe me and what are my rights? The PGME dean of resident affairs says that I have a right to a positive learning experience while at McGill, whatever that means. It definitely helps to have the PGME on my side. 

You were offered employment in a situation where you accurately stated your abilities in french, and they completely failed to communicate their actual language 'requirements'. I am not a lawyer but in my opinion, you have a strong case in the context of employment law. Having said that, I agree with your assertion that it would be better to figure things out amicably.

I hope lots of people who might be considering ranking McGill highly have a chance to see this thread. From my experience in a past life/career (admittedly not within the last 10 years), I have a strong impression that McGill is a bit of a mess on the administrative side of things, across the board - such that a huge gap between communicated expectations and actual program reality is not that much of a surprise.

I really hope you can sort it out easily enough. I wonder if there would be any sorta remote NOSM spots sitting vacant at the moment. In Northern Ontario, your stated 40% french comprehension could be really appreciated.  Maybe even a trade with a U of O FM person in their English stream, but who is bilingual? Gotta be loads of them; but I confess to having no idea how the process works.

All the best, and if appropriate, I hope to hear how you sort it out!

-GM

[Butterfly_]

Learning a new language is tough and takes time. The hardest time is usually the first 6 months to 1 year. After a year of being immersed in a foreign language environment, you should feel a lot more comfortable. Try using online courses to learn French. It’s more flexible and you can learn anytime you’re free.

I understand things may be very difficult for you right now, but in the grand scheme of things, becoming fluent in French may open more doors for you in the future. 

You’ll never regret putting in the effort to learn a new language.

[indefatigable]

I really think you're doing ok.  40% comprehension after 6 months from 0 is decent - it will only improve from here.  You shouldn't expect that communication in French will ever be like communicating in English, but only that your capacity will continue to improve.  I know it's difficult and frustrating, but it sounds like others have been in your situation and have been able to get through.  

By all means look into possibilities of transferring, but if you end up having to stay, then having PGME on your side is a big plus.  I don't think you need to lawyer up at this moment - but a positive learning experience for you I think may include more time to get comfortable in French which hopefully your program should support.  Try and put in whatever time you can into French outside including listening, reading, speaking, etc..  
 

[SpeakWhite]

On 12/7/2019 at 12:32 AM, LittleDaisy said:

Unfortunately, a lot of patients show up to McGill-affiliated hospitals and clinics expecting to be treated in French, which is not the same for English-speaking patients in Quebec, it's definitely a double standard. 

Ah yes, the audacity of francophone patients—in a French province, where French is the common language, where all professionals (including physicians!) are required by law to be capable of providing services in French, where patients have the right to be treated in French, and where there is no special privilege afforded to McGill-affiliated hospitals (rather, only the obligation to offer services in English to Quebec’s anglophone community)—to expect to receive treatment in French… truly a double standard.

Nothing like a little reminder from our cultural overlords to start off the week just right.

[robben04]

21 minutes ago, SpeakWhite said:

Ah yes, the audacity of francophone patients—in a French province, where French is the common language, where all professionals (including physicians!) are required by law to be capable of providing services in French, where patients have the right to be treated in French, and where there is no special privilege afforded to McGill-affiliated hospitals (rather, only the obligation to offer services in English to Quebec’s anglophone community)—to expect to receive treatment in French… truly a double standard.

Nothing like a little reminder from our cultural overlords to start off the week just right.

Hi, 

I don't mean to incite language politics and I do not bemoan the francophone patients - as I stated, I was originally fully invested in learning French, that's why I thought that McGill would be a neat place to do some of my medical training. I do feel that McGill needs to be more straightforward about the realities of working in this province, particularly as an anglophone person. And that if McGill is going to accept anglophone residents, then they need to be committed to supporting those residents. 

[Jeffery089]

2 hours ago, SpeakWhite said:

Ah yes, the audacity of francophone patients—in a French province, where French is the common language, where all professionals (including physicians!) are required by law to be capable of providing services in French, where patients have the right to be treated in French, and where there is no special privilege afforded to McGill-affiliated hospitals (rather, only the obligation to offer services in English to Quebec’s anglophone community)—to expect to receive treatment in French… truly a double standard.

Nothing like a little reminder from our cultural overlords to start off the week just right.

Wah wah wah. The point here is that McGill accepts monolingual anglophones, and THEN tells them "oh by the way if you're not fluent in French within a month you're screwed".  An anglophone applicant can easily be led to believe they will have time to ease into it, or be allowed to take mostly English speaking patients as their French improves. McGill is at fault for having absolutely no language requirements if it's so important for every single resident to be fluent in French.

 

edit: just saw your name, guess I was baited by a troll account

[SpeakWhite]

2 hours ago, robben04 said:

Hi, 

I don't mean to incite language politics and I do not bemoan the francophone patients - as I stated, I was originally fully invested in learning French, that's why I thought that McGill would be a neat place to do some of my medical training. I do feel that McGill needs to be more straightforward about the realities of working in this province, particularly as an anglophone person. And that if McGill is going to accept anglophone residents, then they need to be committed to supporting those residents. 

I agree and have a lot of sympathy for your predicament. It’s unfortunate that you find yourself in this situation.

It is the comments of others in this thread displaying a cavalier attitude (and frankly quite a bit of wilful ignorance) that prompted my reply. 

[SpeakWhite]

1 hour ago, Jeffery089 said:

Wah wah wah. The point here is that McGill accepts monolingual anglophones, and THEN tells them "oh by the way if you're not fluent in French within a month you're screwed".  An anglophone applicant can easily be led to believe they will have time to ease into it, or be allowed to take mostly English speaking patients as their French improves. McGill is at fault for having absolutely no language requirements if it's so important for every single resident to be fluent in French.

 

edit: just saw your name, guess I was baited by a troll account

McGill does not make the law. It is the obligation of everyone (including candidates from outside Quebec) to be aware of the regulatory framework that they will be working under during residency. Program requirements clearly state that trainees are subject to the Code de déontologie des médecins and to all the regulations that apply to physicians. This includes adequate knowledge of French.

It is unfortunate that this is not crystal clear upon application, but that does not negate patient rights and does not excuse your complete disregard for them. 
 

And if you think my name is a troll name, then I highly encourage you to look it up—you may find out an uncomfortable truth about the attitude relative to language rights that you and others are displaying in this thread.