Masters Vs Caribbean

[StriveP]

^a family doctor can easily make 250-300K in their first year out of residency. An engineer lawyer or accountant will never in their entire career come close to that unless they are in the top1% of their field or become some very high end managers

I literally laughed out loud when I saw this post, typical premed. You are soo delusional it's not even funny.Yes they can make $250k-300k "easily" if you move to the middle of no where and live in a small village with a population. Do you know how much an engineer that starts his own company can make? The sky is the limit. Same thing with lawyers, if you are good and have an established business down the road you can make 7 figures. Maybe not at the start but after a while you can.

[StriveP]

I didn't even say anything about the ethics of it. It's just not a suggestion that would help OP AT ALL. As someone pointed out, the average gpa for IP at Alberta is 3.9+. UBC was somewhere around 87%. Calgary is an option but it's hardly a guarantee and requires 2 years. All three of said schools only drop 1 year so not really that helpful. OP is better off with the 3+ Ontario schools that have second degree type policies.

 

It doesn't matter what I think of striveP, it just wasn't a good suggestion for the topic at hand. At all.

 

I don't think you understand the concept of IP and OP in Ontario. Ontario residents don't get any reserved seats except for Mcmaster and that's a long shot when 5000 people apply to that one school (ANYONE can apply to UofT, Ottawa, Queens, NOSM, Western since they don't care where you are from). And Alberta medical schools not only drop your worst year, they also make ALL your A's = 4.0. In Ontario all your A's become a 3.9. I've applied to both the east coast and west coast and I've been through this several times. I've gotten so many PMs at this point about people wanting to move to the west that you telling people it's not effective is not going to help. I don't understand how all the Albertans are being so insecure about this topic. At the end, the west coast is better place to be in if you want to apply to Medical school whether you like it or not. Anyone with a brain can realize this.

 

OP- Recalculate your GPA with As becoming a 4.0 and dropping your lowest year. If your GPA is above 3.6+ I think it's worth you looking into this or even doing a masters on the west coast that will bump up your GPA (I know UofC includes masters GPA in GPA calculations)

[GH0ST]

I don't think you understand the concept of IP and OP in Ontario. Ontario residents don't get any reserved seats except for Mcmaster and that's a long shot when 5000 people apply to that one school (ANYONE can apply to UofT, Ottawa, Queens, NOSM, Western since they don't care where you are from). And Alberta medical schools not only drop your worst year, they also make ALL your A's = 4.0. In Ontario all your A's become a 3.9. I've applied to both the east coast and west coast and I've been through this several times. I've gotten so many PMs at this point about people wanting to move to the west that you telling people it's not effective is not going to help. I don't understand how all the Albertans are being so insecure about this topic. At the end, the west coast is better place to be in if you want to apply to Medical school whether you like it or not. Anyone with a brain can realize this.

 

OP- Recalculate your GPA with As becoming a 4.0 and dropping your lowest year. If your GPA is above 3.6+ I think it's worth you looking into this or even doing a masters on the west coast that will bump up your GPA (I know UofC includes masters GPA in GPA calculations)

 

Look .... I mean what people are more sensitive about when you say "easier" (I mean it's relative at the end of the day) is that it sounds like it's discrediting the efforts that IP people from BC and AB made to get into their respective IP schools. I'm all for more qualified people getting in over me, but I worked hard to get to where I am, even if it wasn't a smooth ride there. Even with a ~3.6 it's still rough for the OP. I only know one guy in the cohort now that had a 3.5 GPA, but tried 4 times and had research accolades to the skies. The OP will have to work hard regardless of where he goes for his MD so I hope he doesn't get the misconception that it's smooth sailing. It does seem like the OP's leaning towards business anyways.

 

OP: UofA also includes all masters years in the calculations, while UofC only takes your entire masters GPA and make it weigh one year's worth

 

- G

[StriveP]

Look .... I mean what people are more sensitive about when you say "easier" (I mean it's relative at the end of the day) is that it sounds like it's discrediting the efforts that IP people from BC and AB made to get into their respective IP schools. I'm all for more qualified people getting in over me, but I worked hard to get to where I am, even if it wasn't a smooth ride there. Even with a ~3.6 it's still rough for the OP. I only know one guy in the cohort now that had a 3.5 GPA, but tried 4 times and had research accolades to the skies. The OP will have to work hard regardless of where he goes for his MD so I hope he doesn't get the misconception that it's smooth sailing. It does seem like the OP's leaning towards business anyways.

 

OP: UofA also includes all masters years in the calculations, while UofC only takes your entire masters GPA and make it weigh one year's worth

 

One person? I know that may be believable for UofA but not for UofC. UofC weighs GPA as 20% and I know last year's class average was 3.73. There were people as low as 3.3 that got in, I even know 1 person with a 3.3 who was accepted just this summer. And Alberta and BC schools have soft MCAT cutoffs (Calgary takes anything and they had 1 year where someone got in with a 5 VR, Alberta and UBC is 7/7/7 minimum). Obviously you will need steller ECs to get in, like your typical research + couple clubs won't really cut it. You really have to stand out. At the end, i'm not trying make the schools look easier to get into because they are definitely tough to get into. All i'm saying is statistically you have a higher chance if your GPA is under 3.9 and have good ECs. There are no schools in Ontario that will guarantee you 25%+ chance of getting an interview for applying blindly. 

[3change]

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[amichel]

I don't think you understand the concept of IP and OP in Ontario. Ontario residents don't get any reserved seats except for Mcmaster and that's a long shot when 5000 people apply to that one school (ANYONE can apply to UofT, Ottawa, Queens, NOSM, Western since they don't care where you are from). And Alberta medical schools not only drop your worst year, they also make ALL your A's = 4.0. In Ontario all your A's become a 3.9. I've applied to both the east coast and west coast and I've been through this several times. I've gotten so many PMs at this point about people wanting to move to the west that you telling people it's not effective is not going to help. I don't understand how all the Albertans are being so insecure about this topic. At the end, the west coast is better place to be in if you want to apply to Medical school whether you like it or not. Anyone with a brain can realize this.

 

OP- Recalculate your GPA with As becoming a 4.0 and dropping your lowest year. If your GPA is above 3.6+ I think it's worth you looking into this or even doing a masters on the west coast that will bump up your GPA (I know UofC includes masters GPA in GPA calculations)

I understand it perfectly well actually.  I still think OP has a much better chance doing two years of a second undergrad and therefore having a completely 'fresh' GPA for Western and Queens.  It'll take 2 years, but it will also take 2 years to be IP for Calgary so... 

 

I didn't say it wasn't effective, I said I didn't think it would be effective for OP.  Also, as I've told you already, I'm not albertan and I also got into an Ontario school. I'm not being insecure, I'm being realistic.  Unless OPs GPA goes up significantly with the A+ = 4.0, their chances are not that great in Alberta.  Is it possible? Yes, especially at Calgary.  Is it likely with a 3.5? (and therefore worth moving across the country?) I'm not sure.  

 

Also, it makes no sense to say that Western schools 'guarantee' you a 25% chance of interview.  Your chance of interview is dependent on your application, just like in Ontario.  If you have a 3.3 GPA your chances are no where near 25%.  Just like if you have a 4.0 and a good MCAT in ontario your chances are much greater than the overall 20% admission rate. (Actually, they're probably about 100% to get an interview because of Western)

[GH0ST]

One person? I know that may be believable for UofA but not for UofC. UofC weighs GPA as 20% and I know last year's class average was 3.73. There were people as low as 3.3 that got in, I even know 1 person with a 3.3 who was accepted just this summer.

 

I only know one guy in the cohort now that had a 3.5 GPA, but tried 4 times and had research accolades to the skies.

 

I was referring only to my class, though there was this one guy with a PhD.. donno what his GPA is but a cool guy.

 

- G

[Edict]

I've never told anybody that I am a doctor, not my cleaning lady, not by neighbours, nobody. What would be the point? My patients know and that is what is important. There are no positives to tell others.

 

If you go on a date with someone, sooner or later they are going to find out that you are a medical student or doctor. Generally that is a positive. 

[Bambi]

If you go on a date with someone, sooner or later they are going to find out that you are a medical student or doctor. Generally that is a positive. 

Well, if you are female, the male is intimidated that you are smarter than him, will have a higher income than him - and either he or you (the female) take him out of contention. And as rmorelan says, money comes way down the pipeline, at least a decade later when you factor in residency and fellowship and then just beginning to build a practice. For a potential significant other to have the main focus of my making lots of money is a non-starter. 

[Edict]

Well, if you are female, the male is intimidated that you are smarter than him, will have a higher income than him - and either he or you (the female) take him out of contention. And as rmorelan says, money comes way down the pipeline, at least a decade later when you factor in residency and fellowship and then just beginning to build a practice. For a potential significant other to have the main focus of my making lots of money is a non-starter. 

 

My point is that as a doctor you gain a lot of privileges by telling people you are a medical student or doctor beyond just to your patients and in real life you do tell people you've just met what you are doing in your life. I've experienced it myself already. I don't think there is any debate on this point at least.  

[Wannabedoctorzab]

There are zero job prospects for his specialty and we have a ton of debt from his student loans. He totally burnt himself out in residency and he's been trying to keep his head above water since then...

 

I'm so sorry to hear that. That actually upsets me quite a bit. I've heard of people doing highly specialized residencies/fellowships and ending up doing nothing because its too specialized and there are no hospitals in the area looking for that because they already got senior/highly experienced doctors working for the next 20-40 years.

 

I don't mean to be rude...but what was the point of this thread then? You are saying you cannot and will not work for someone else, which is going to happen at some point as a doctor

And if you don't like seeing sick people....

I feel like I'm missing something? Is there some reason you are considering medicine over an MBA that hasn't been mentioned?

 

You might want to read my lengthy post.

 

Yes I am a little lost on the point of the thread too. If OP doesn't have an interest in biology, research, teaching, or sick people, then I would think OP would want to steer clear of medicine, even as insurance against business. You have to throw yourself into all of these areas and more in order to be a successful med student, let alone as a resident, fellow, or physician. Spending that much energy on something you dislike for the next 10-15 years...

 

I am still a pre-med but based on everything I have observed, medicine is not a discipline easily pursued as a "back-up," if not only because it sucks up so much of your time. Wannabedoctorzab, I would just commit to your passion for business until you become the success in the business-world that you envision, failures be damned. Road bumps never slowed Trump down: he may have bankrupt a few companies but he is still a bazillionaire CEO, about to take the GOP nomination.

 

Every success with your MBA!

 

Not an MBA! I hate MBA!

 

no it does not. I am applying this cycle and I am wanting to do medicine only for the money and prestige. Simple as that. I am not going to pretend like I'm this perfect person with all these BS reasons of wanting to go into medical school. It does not meet I will be a bad or unhappy doctor by any means. You can't say stuff like that.

 

We think very alike.

 

Family doctors working 40 hour weeks can make 250K. Work more in a good location and do lucrative procedures can family docs can make 400K. Specialists like radiology can make 500K, dermatology 600K, and ophthalmology 700k. and this is working 40-50hrs. Nothing crazy like some think. It's always funny when some people think doctors work long hours...yea some do like surgeons but not all. And these numbers are not what I "think" look up the residency guide and find these figures

 

That isn't possible unless you're literally in Nunavut or something. For starters, I've worked with some close doctors, family friends for that matter, and they fall in the 49.9% tax bracket and get taxed the life out of them. There is absolutely NO way they walk home with 250k as a family practice - UNLESS they have their own businesses on theside. And 400k? Again, perhaps if you're in Iqaluit? Tax? Please be realistic. Those guides are typicall pre-tax/cut figures and are generally misleading.

 

what money? I refer you back to the 15 year lag before the money comes in

 

This. Thank you.

 

I literally laughed out loud when I saw this post, typical premed. You are soo delusional it's not even funny.Yes they can make $250k-300k "easily" if you move to the middle of no where and live in a small village with a population. Do you know how much an engineer that starts his own company can make? The sky is the limit. Same thing with lawyers, if you are good and have an established business down the road you can make 7 figures. Maybe not at the start but after a while you can.

 

That last sentence - engineers/lawyers/businessmen make greater money.

 

I don't think you understand the concept of IP and OP in Ontario. Ontario residents don't get any reserved seats except for Mcmaster and that's a long shot when 5000 people apply to that one school (ANYONE can apply to UofT, Ottawa, Queens, NOSM, Western since they don't care where you are from). And Alberta medical schools not only drop your worst year, they also make ALL your A's = 4.0. In Ontario all your A's become a 3.9. I've applied to both the east coast and west coast and I've been through this several times. I've gotten so many PMs at this point about people wanting to move to the west that you telling people it's not effective is not going to help. I don't understand how all the Albertans are being so insecure about this topic. At the end, the west coast is better place to be in if you want to apply to Medical school whether you like it or not. Anyone with a brain can realize this.

 

OP- Recalculate your GPA with As becoming a 4.0 and dropping your lowest year. If your GPA is above 3.6+ I think it's worth you looking into this or even doing a masters on the west coast that will bump up your GPA (I know UofC includes masters GPA in GPA calculations)

 

But why drop the lowest year? Is that how med schools look at it or something? Because if I drop my lowest year, I'm roughly back at a 3.7.

[StriveP]

Every medical school in the west coast (University of Alberta, Calgary, BC) drops your lowest year as long as the lowest year isn't your last year. If your GPA is 3.7 with the drop alone then its obvious your best option is to get IP status probably in BC. I would recommend you do a Masters in BC that way you pull up your GPA, get a Masters degree and actually have a chance of getting into medical school. Keep in mind western schools bump your As to a 4.0 so your GPA is probably much higher than 3.7. Trust me on this one, i've done this myself. At the end it's your choice but I hope you actually look into this because you'll regret it down the road if you don't. 

[Rorzo]

As a disclaimer, I'm speaking as someone only in pre-clerkship but I thought I'd chime in here.

 

1. The money. Yes, even in urban areas family doctors can make 250k+ after overhead. I'm not saying it would be the easiest thing to do in a 100% FFS outpatient practice, but with nursing homes, walk-in or urgent care clinics, inpatient work, or the family health team/group models it is more than doable. Look up posts from da_birdie or moo for some specifics from this site. While you'll never have a shot at what the 0.1% of software engineers or CEOs can make if they get lucky, you can still make double what a director at a big 5 bank does if your goal is to make money, and you can do it at 30-35 years old where they'd be nearing the end of their careers. As an aside if you're paying a 50% marginal tax rate on that I'd highly suggest looking into incorporation because you're leaving a lot of money on the table.
2. The job. I'm 100% not saying someone focused on money will be a bad doctor. What I will say is that if you have ZERO interest in what you're doing, it will be incredibly hard. The OP mentioned needing therapy in their undergrad because of how much they hated it, and I ask how much money would you have had to been paid for it not to take an emotional toll on you? I've seen families dealing with brain dead children in their twenties, had to have an "Allow Natural Death" conversation, and seen some horrible consequences of child abuse. And these are all from branches of family medicine - I don't think there's any specialty that can avoid the low points of medicine. It's incredibly emotionally taxing on anyone, and if I had to face that for the next 30+ years with no greater goal than a paycheck then I'd drop out right now and take a 50% pay cut to have something that was "just a job" without the baggage medicine inevitably carries. If you want medicine, you want medicine; but honestly ask yourself, given your personality - is the prestige, the paycheck, the reputation going to be worth it day after day, year after year to do something you have very little desire to do?

[rmorelan]

Well, if you are female, the male is intimidated that you are smarter than him, will have a higher income than him - and either he or you (the female) take him out of contention. And as rmorelan says, money comes way down the pipeline, at least a decade later when you factor in residency and fellowship and then just beginning to build a practice. For a potential significant other to have the main focus of my making lots of money is a non-starter. 

 

you would think we would be past that in the 21st century but oh well. If you follow the stereotype you end up with male doctors worried about people chasing them for their money, and female doctors scaring away people(?) Not exactly sounding like there is a lot of winning going on with that ha

 

Never got that intimidation thing - but the flip side is of course it is less likely to happen if the counterpart is actually a educated professional as well. Similarly following the stereotype is less of a problem for a guy if the partner is also a doctor with a similar income. There are a lot of power couples kicking around in medicine as a result - so many power couples ha.

[App555]

 

As a disclaimer, I'm speaking as someone only in pre-clerkship but I thought I'd chime in here.

 

• The money. Yes, even in urban areas family doctors can make 250k+ after overhead. I'm not saying it would be the easiest thing to do in a 100% FFS outpatient practice, but with nursing homes, walk-in or urgent care clinics, inpatient work, or the family health team/group models it is more than doable. Look up posts from da_birdie or moo for some specifics from this site. While you'll never have a shot at what the 0.1% of software engineers or CEOs can make if they get lucky, you can still make double what a director at a big 5 bank does if your goal is to make money, and you can do it at 30-35 years old where they'd be nearing the end of their careers. As an aside if you're paying a 50% marginal tax rate on that I'd highly suggest looking into incorporation because you're leaving a lot of money on the table.
• The job. I'm 100% not saying someone focused on money will be a bad doctor. What I will say is that if you have ZERO interest in what you're doing, it will be incredibly hard. The OP mentioned needing therapy in their undergrad because of how much they hated it, and I ask how much money would you have had to been paid for it not to take an emotional toll on you? I've seen families dealing with brain dead children in their twenties, had to have an "Allow Natural Death" conversation, and seen some horrible consequences of child abuse. And these are all from branches of family medicine - I don't think there's any specialty that can avoid the low points of medicine. It's incredibly emotionally taxing on anyone, and if I had to face that for the next 30+ years with no greater goal than a paycheck then I'd drop out right now and take a 50% pay cut to have something that was "just a job" without the baggage medicine inevitably carries. If you want medicine, you want medicine; but honestly ask yourself, given your personality - is the prestige, the paycheck, the reputation going to be worth it day after day, year after year to do something you have very little desire to do?

thank you. I hate when people underestimate the money the doctors make.....a family doctor in an urban center of Canada can make 250-300K working a normal 40 hours after overhead even.....part of me wonders if the people like the previous poster are just ignorant or underestimate salaries and overestimate hours to deter people from applying and so they have a higher chance of getting in?

[Falling]

This is an odd thread. 

 

Imagine thinking you need a good job to garner the interest of women. 

 

Like imagine dedicating 10-15 years of education to something so you can convince a small subset of women to be interested in your money. 

 

For the record, I think smart women are attractive. Most doctors are smart. :0

[rmorelan]

thank you. I hate when people underestimate the money the doctors make.....a family doctor in an urban center of Canada can make 250-300K working a normal 40 hours after overhead even.....part of me wonders if the people like the previous poster are just ignorant or underestimate salaries and overestimate hours to deter people from applying and so they have a higher chance of getting in?

 

well the OP didn't say you could do all that with a normal 40 week, doing just normal visitations etc. That is why the average is lower than that (the difference between can and what most actually do - a difference that of course is partially under your control which is why being smart about this is well smart). Not to beat a dead horse - I am just always trying to make sure people know what the usual situation is - again not that there aren't exceptions. The CMA tracks the average number of hours family doctors work and it is not 40 - closer to 55. They presented an average take home pay two years back and it was lower than 250K. With business sense you can certainly max the game a bit though

[Wannabedoctorzab]

Bless you all.

 

I've decided to apply to a Masters but I will apply to medical schools as well because I apparently have a 3.82 queens and 3.80 western gpa

[PurpleS]

Good luck!