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[BernieMac]

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[rmorelan]

well part of it is the recent past there were currency fluctuations that had the can dollar higher than the us one - 1.1:1 in fact. That completely changes the math you have above to it costing almost 275K Can alone. That has changed of course completely lately - although even now in sort order it has improved with the dollar up say nearly 20 cents which would reduce the cost by about 25%. These currency changes are really powerful.

Next you hit the nail on the head with the wealthy parents line. With family as a co signer you can one way or the other more than 275K - or even just the fact that many parents seem to have the means to send their kids there even without loans (even at Canadian schools there is a bias towards wealthier parents that is quite striking). I have seen parents take out the co-signed loan and still access more loans another way. No pressure of course on the student there - nothing like having the family home on the line to make you really want to study hard. 

 

[BernieMac]

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[IMislove]

Co-signer for out of Canada IIRC, don't know if the loan gets larger but didn't think so, risk and all lol.

[cookiemonster99]

It's ridiculous i know. 

i know people's parents that sold their homes to send their kids to a US MD school. 
given the price of real estate in Toronto and Vancouver it isn't surprising that people are able to send their kids away. 
all they have to do is sell their homes in a major city and move a bit more north and voila they have another 300k for their kids 
 

[rmorelan]

On 10/15/2017 at 10:48 PM, YesIcan55 said:

I dont know much about LOC at all, do you need someone to a be cosigner? And if you have one does that mean you can get more than 275K??

well for instance if the cosigner could independently obtain a LOC for more than 275K than combining it doesn't change that - now in most cases that means substantial collateral or an extra special financial situation relative to a lot of people. With the home equality loans and the value of some houses these days you can get with a paid off home a lot of credit quickly.

[rmorelan]

37 minutes ago, cookiemonster99 said:

It's ridiculous i know. 

i know people's parents that sold their homes to send their kids to a US MD school. 
given the price of real estate in Toronto and Vancouver it isn't surprising that people are able to send their kids away. 
all they have to do is sell their homes in a major city and move a bit more north and voila they have another 300k for their kids 
 

or not even sell it as above but yeah put it on the line either way. 

 

Again no pressure there, ha

[la marzocco]

However, this is still better than a scenario where my friend went straight to a Caribbean medical school after high school to do a 6-yr programme. Most Caribbean med schools charge in USD and the prospects of being able to practise in Canada is even more bleak than USMGs. 

She had a facebook post not too long ago saying she has $600K (converted back to CAD) of debt and unable to secure residency in neither USA/Canada.

Thankfully her family is well off as her parents are also physicians and were able to help service her debt now as she is pursuing a different career in business.

[indefatigable]

Irish medical school cost around 40-50K Euros/year in international tuition and are full of Canadians.  Australian med schools are very pricy too and they're another popular destination.  Both of these are less certain than the US MD route, but are better than the Caribbean schools.  Parents will do what they can for their children and some parents have the means,  or will make various sacrifices.  

[BoopityBoop]

So the images below is from CaRMs 2010 report on Canadians studying abroad. I know it doesn't specify the US, but I suspect that it would be similar as most students attempt admission at US school prior to going outside of Canada & US

Hope this helps!

Screen Shot 2017-10-17 at 11.12.39.jp2

[Intrepid86]

1 hour ago, calcan said:

Irish medical school cost around 40-50K Euros/year in international tuition and are full of Canadians.  Australian med schools are very pricy too and they're another popular destination.  Both of these are less certain than the US MD route, but are better than the Caribbean schools.  Parents will do what they can for their children and some parents have the means,  or will make various sacrifices.  

The success of IMGs is highly individualistic. Those who actually go abroad will realize that their school ultimately plays little role in the final outcome when it comes to matching. Saying that Irish and Australian med schools are better than those in the Caribbean isn't meaningful. If you're not a strong student, then you're screwed no matter where you go. Fewer Canadians go to the Caribbean simply because of the existing stigma, but their personal situations wouldn't necessarily be better elsewhere. There are plenty from Ireland and Australia who don't match either. Getting admission to a US MD school and attending is extremely expensive, but worth it, since it's one of the few options that's pretty much guaranteed a favorable result. These fortunate souls need to beg people or rob a bank if they have too.

NB: I am not actually suggesting robbing a bank. Get away coppers

[indefatigable]

Sure - but your criticism applies to anyone going to any school.  Success to a large extent dependent on the individual, barring circumstances that are not under one's control.  Of course the chances of success are much higher within the Canadian or US MD training system.  That's the issue with the Caribbean schools - at least reputationally, are in general not considered to be at the same level in terms of training or afterwards.  So the same individual might have greater chances of success going to an Australian rather than Caribbean school.  This has been debated on this forum, but however it's framed, training in Australia means training in a first world nation with a health-care system comparable to Canada.  Of course, the onus on the individual to match is much higher than in Canada or the US, but it's a relative comparison.  Within the US, I've seen Australian grads do electives at places like Stanford, which would be less likely for Caribbean students.

[Coronaxtra]

54 minutes ago, Intrepid86 said:

The success of IMGs is highly individualistic. Those who actually go abroad will realize that their school ultimately plays little role in the final outcome when it comes to matching. Saying that Irish and Australian med schools are better than those in the Caribbean isn't meaningful. If you're not a strong student, then you're screwed no matter where you go. Fewer Canadians go to the Caribbean simply because of the existing stigma, but their personal situations wouldn't necessarily be better elsewhere. There are plenty from Ireland and Australia who don't match either. Getting admission to a US MD school and attending is extremely expensive, but worth it, since it's one of the few options that's pretty much guaranteed a favorable result. These fortunate souls need to beg people or rob a bank if they have too.

NB: I am not actually suggesting robbing a bank. Get away coppers

I don't necessarily agree that fewer Canadians go to the Caribbean. Just in my area, there are 15 people in med school in the Caribbean. It's been increasing over the years in areas surrounding Toronto (Mississauga, Vaughan, Brampton). You wouldn't even imagine what parents would do to send their kids to become doctors even if they know the risks are high. The mentality is "my kid won't be the one not matching" but it's definitely not in their favour. Certain people in my family have taken 500k+ debt to get an MD from the caribbean to maybe do a residency in the middle of Idaho. 

[la marzocco]

I too know a lot. Most of my friends who have been unsuccessful gaining admissions into a Canadian/US med school often look to Caribbean schools than UK/Australian. I am not precisely sure why this is the case, but some have cited that living in UK is exorbitantly expensive given the CAD <-> EUR conversion.

But, I strongly advise against trying to shortcut this process by doing a 6-six MD programme in the Caribbeans right after high school. In a sense, I really like the Canadian/US model in that you need prior undergrad studies. The life experiences that you gain allow you to understand your likes and dislikes and whether you are a good fit for medicine.

 

[yup]

Something also to consider about the Caribbean is the weather and potential for devastating hurricanes. It looks like Ross University (in Dominica) will be continuing classes on a cruise ship following hurricane maria: http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/2017/09/ALERTS-Campus-Status-Weather-Updates-and-More.cfm

[BernieMac]

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[indefatigable]

.

 

[Coronaxtra]

52 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

If you don't have parents that can help or a major scholarship then the US is not even an option. It just irks me when it seems like so many people here recommend the US as a second best thing if Canada does not work out without second thought of how the average person can manage the $. The average applicant does not have wealthy parents...or 500K CAD in a piggy bank in their room (or even 225K CAD- when they max out the 275K LOC)...

This is how certain people in my family got the $$$ for the Caribbean (~450-500K CAD). First, they go get a LOC from the bank. I've heard amounts ranging from 200-275K depending on the bank, advisor, etc. Lets take the upper limit for both LOC and total cost (275K & 500K). OSAP will give you about $10,000/year so $40,000. Typically, the difference is covered through home equity loan, high-interest personal loans, parent retirement savings, and other assets (ex. selling foreign owned land, bonds, real estate, etc.). I'd say to come up with $500,000 using LOC, OSAP, and home equity loan is doable, especially if you're from Toronto/Vancouver where house prices are super high. Hence the reason students can afford to go to the Caribbean. 

20 minutes ago, calcan said:

And taking a look at a very recent CaRMS presentation, shows a nearly 50% match rate for Australian/NZ.. grads, 40% for Europe (including UK, Poland,..) and 20% for Caribbean.  Objectively speaking, the chance of CaRMS success is twice as high from Australia than the Caribbean, and almost that much from Europe.  It's still well short of the 97% rate for CaRMS, but proportionally much closer.

I think people choose the Caribbean for the US mainland rotations. Being closer to home is beneficial, especially for the two year rotation period. Plus, you can participate in the US match and get a potential residency spot closer to home. Not saying its a better option but more so a "safer option" to match to the US and live in Michigan/New York state to be closer to family. The people that I know who chose the Caribbean went for Family Medicine or Internal Medicine. Your options are extremely limited once you go to the Caribbean, which I'm sure the students know who choose to take the Caribbean route.

[Happy_go]

On 10/17/2017 at 8:21 AM, cookiemonster99 said:

It's ridiculous i know. 

i know people's parents that sold their homes to send their kids to a US MD school. 
given the price of real estate in Toronto and Vancouver it isn't surprising that people are able to send their kids away. 
all they have to do is sell their homes in a major city and move a bit more north and voila they have another 300k for their kids 
 

.

[Happy_go]

On 10/17/2017 at 9:21 AM, qnzjlo said:

However, this is still better than a scenario where my friend went straight to a Caribbean medical school after high school to do a 6-yr programme. Most Caribbean med schools charge in USD and the prospects of being able to practise in Canada is even more bleak than USMGs. 

She had a facebook post not too long ago saying she has $600K (converted back to CAD) of debt and unable to secure residency in neither USA/Canada.

Thankfully her family is well off as her parents are also physicians and were able to help service her debt now as she is pursuing a different career in business.

.

[la marzocco]

46 minutes ago, getrich said:

Could you screenshot and hide any personal info of the post? Would really like to understand one's perspective when they get to that stage. I have no idea what I'd do if I were in that position. On **DELETED**, there was a person considering suicide from all the debt and coming home to start a 40-50k job. 

Out of respect and common courtesy, I will not be doing this.

[rmorelan]

1 hour ago, Coronaxtra said:

 

1 hour ago, calcan said:

And taking a look at a very recent CaRMS presentation, shows a nearly 50% match rate for Australian/NZ.. grads, 40% for Europe (including UK, Poland,..) and 20% for Caribbean.  Objectively speaking, the chance of CaRMS success is twice as high from Australia than the Caribbean, and almost that much from Europe.  It's still well short of the 97% rate for CaRMS, but proportionally much closer.

every time I see those statistics I cringe - I know those people will often be applying for also US spots so they are lower than the effective rate but still - that is a ton of money for relatively low odds. 

Make the US route look a lot better every time. 

[prehealth101]

11 hours ago, qnzjlo said:

However, this is still better than a scenario where my friend went straight to a Caribbean medical school after high school to do a 6-yr programme. Most Caribbean med schools charge in USD and the prospects of being able to practise in Canada is even more bleak than USMGs. 

She had a facebook post not too long ago saying she has $600K (converted back to CAD) of debt and unable to secure residency in neither USA/Canada.

Thankfully her family is well off as her parents are also physicians and were able to help service her debt now as she is pursuing a different career in business.

What school was this?

The Caribbean schools that'll leave in you that kind of debt (the big "4") don't have 6 year programs. 

 

[la marzocco]

1 hour ago, rmorelan said:

every time I see those statistics I cringe - I know those people will often be applying for also US spots so they are lower than the effective rate but still - that is a ton of money for relatively low odds. 

Make the US route look a lot better every time. 

I agree, they really need to do a better job educating prospective medical students who are looking elsewhere to think twice. 

Almost like a "buyer beware" - caveat emptor you taking this path put you in a situation that could disadvantage you. As mentioned many times on the forum, success rate is individualistic, but this slide gives a lot of perspective. 

[rmorelan]

1 hour ago, qnzjlo said:

I agree, they really need to do a better job educating prospective medical students who are looking elsewhere to think twice. 

Almost like a "buyer beware" - caveat emptor you taking this path put you in a situation that could disadvantage you. As mentioned many times on the forum, success rate is individualistic, but this slide gives a lot of perspective. 

sure - we are really biased by the success internally in Canada - our failure rate from med school is extremely low, and the match rate in the end extremely high. Doesn't matter what school you go to either - pretty much all Canadian schools are the same. It isn't like that everywhere else.