.

[kiterunner]

.

[Med Life Crisis]

Well Quebec already started cutting med school seats

[ExercMed]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but haven't most of the unfilled positions been located in Quebec? It seems somewhat short sighted to start cutting med school seats in the province that isn't fully matching positions. Or at least it isn't addressing the real issue.  

[la marzocco]

I think the reason they are cutting med school seats is because the Quebec health minister feels there there would be a surplus of physicians down the road.. lol 

"Le gouvernement du Québec réduit dès cet automne le nombre d’étudiants admis en médecine, une mesure qu’il compte répéter, car il craint de former trop de médecins chômeurs."

[rmorelan]

1 hour ago, ExercMed said:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but haven't most of the unfilled positions been located in Quebec? It seems somewhat short sighted to start cutting med school seats in the province that isn't fully matching positions. Or at least it isn't addressing the real issue.  

fully matching all positions implies a musical chair style event that would be incredibly bad for med students (even if it is optimal for the hospitals etc). Anything close to that as so little flexibility that the unmatch rate jumps. We are already seeing that kind of jump and residency spots in Ontario are already scheduled to drop further. 

[rmorelan]

13 hours ago, kiterunner said:

If CaRMS is getting tigher and higher, why not pare back medical school enrolment?

It seems enrolment exploded post-1990 (with drastic increases in the past decade).

As horrifying as that is for people trying to get into medical school(and it is terrifying - it is never easy to get into medical school but people from my cohort have to remember that the spot expansion helped up a lot)  that overall probably isn't a bad idea on the systems level if the CARMS positions fall.  

 

[la marzocco]

29 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

fully matching all positions implies a musical chair style event that would be incredibly bad for med students (even if it is optimal for the hospitals etc). Anything close to that as so little flexibility that the unmatch rate jumps. We are already seeing that kind of jump and residency spots in Ontario are already scheduled to drop further. 

Haven't checked the numbers, but is Ontario graduating more med students than it can absorb in residency spots then? I think the Ontario gov't already cut 70 spots over the last 2 years.. It seems illogical to me they haven't pared back enrolment already for Ontario unis at least.

[rmorelan]

3 hours ago, la marzocco said:

Haven't checked the numbers, but is Ontario graduating more med students than it can absorb in residency spots then? I think the Ontario gov't already cut 70 spots over the last 2 years.. It seems illogical to me they haven't pared back enrolment already for Ontario unis at least.

Had a chat with a doctor heavily involved in the royal college about that - not more but we are approaching parity. From a management point of view almost forcing people to fill the allocated spots does give the government more control over what types of doctors exist and that can be used to guide health care planning. Only issue with that is the government to be blunt sucks at figuring out the human resources aspects of doctors. Too many, too few, and wrong type happens over and over again - part of this is simply it is a really tough problem. Part of it was well is that they have to respond to short term public pressure. 

 

[Edict]

7 hours ago, la marzocco said:

Haven't checked the numbers, but is Ontario graduating more med students than it can absorb in residency spots then? I think the Ontario gov't already cut 70 spots over the last 2 years.. It seems illogical to me they haven't pared back enrolment already for Ontario unis at least.

I think there are still more residency spots than medical school grads, but out of province applicants are taking these spots and some unmatched Ontario medical students are not applying outside Ontario or not broadly enough. Quebec medical school graduates who speak English often prefer to do residency in Ontario especially in Ottawa and Toronto due to the higher salaries and better career prospects in Ontario. Either way, I do think medical school spots could be pared down a bit, especially in Quebec, where they have a higher spots per capita ratio than in the rest of Canada. 

[la marzocco]

34 minutes ago, Edict said:

I think there are still more residency spots than medical school grads, but out of province applicants are taking these spots and some unmatched Ontario medical students are not applying outside Ontario or not broadly enough. Quebec medical school graduates who speak English often prefer to do residency in Ontario especially in Ottawa and Toronto due to the higher salaries and better career prospects in Ontario. Either way, I do think medical school spots could be pared down a bit, especially in Quebec, where they have a higher spots per capita ratio than in the rest of Canada. 

The medical school, to be built on top of the emergency room at the Gatineau Hospital, will open in 2020. Each year the program will place 24 new students from the McGill medical school into the mostly French-language, four-year program. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/mcgill-medical-school-gatineau-1.3750029

Not sure what to make of this. I guess theoretically this won't have a big impact on CaRMS since the 24 francophone students will just backfill unfilled positions around Quebec. 

[JohnGrisham]

12 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

The medical school, to be built on top of the emergency room at the Gatineau Hospital, will open in 2020. Each year the program will place 24 new students from the McGill medical school into the mostly French-language, four-year program. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/mcgill-medical-school-gatineau-1.3750029

Not sure what to make of this. I guess theoretically this won't have a big impact on CaRMS since the 24 francophone students will just backfill unfilled positions around Quebec. 

Thats assuming those applicants will choose to fill those french spots. AFAIK you can't force anyone to go where you want, unless this is an agreed upon thing when the students join. Not a perfect analogy, but similiar with rural sites: They can do their best to choose people they think will match or practice rurally, but they can't force anyone if they change their mind and want to do Neurosurgery in a big centre.  

[rmorelan]

4 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

Thats assuming those applicants will choose to fill those french spots. AFAIK you can't force anyone to go where you want, unless this is an agreed upon thing when the students join. Not a perfect analogy, but similiar with rural sites: They can do their best to choose people they think will match or practice rurally, but they can't force anyone if they change their mind and want to do Neurosurgery in a big centre.  

True - they probably have more spots simply to catch and retain whoever they can but ensuring as much as possible if someone can and wants to stay there then they will have a position in the area of choice. 

Outside of Quebec you cannot force an individual to do something, but but by restricting residency positions as much as they have then can almost force someone to take every position. Ha they have tried similar things with rural positions in the past (by punishing in various severe ways anyone trying to stay in a place they didn't want you to stay). 

This isn't all doom and gloom - but that there is the usual give and take going on here where the government has some say in things. 

[5th time the charm]

2 hours ago, Edict said:

I think there are still more residency spots than medical school grads, but out of province applicants are taking these spots and some unmatched Ontario medical students are not applying outside Ontario or not broadly enough. Quebec medical school graduates who speak English often prefer to do residency in Ontario especially in Ottawa and Toronto due to the higher salaries and better career prospects in Ontario. Either way, I do think medical school spots could be pared down a bit, especially in Quebec, where they have a higher spots per capita ratio than in the rest of Canada. 

The post grad educational experience is also vey crucial and one has to wonder why all these spots are going unfilled in Quebec 

 

[Snowmen]

11 hours ago, 5th time the charm said:

The post grad educational experience is also vey crucial and one has to wonder why all these spots are going unfilled in Quebec 

 

Because Quebec has more residency spots/medical school spot compared to the rest of Canada (if I'm not mistaken) and functions as a separate ecosystem because medical students in the rest of Canada can't be bothered to learn French, therefore making them unable to apply for these spots.

Of course, suggesting that they are lesser quality, which you seem to be doing, can be a decent explanation if you're too lazy to do any research.

[5th time the charm]

10 hours ago, Snowmen said:

Because Quebec has more residency spots/medical school spot compared to the rest of Canada (if I'm not mistaken) and functions as a separate ecosystem because medical students in the rest of Canada can't be bothered to learn French, therefore making them unable to apply for these spots.

Of course, suggesting that they are lesser quality, which you seem to be doing, can be a decent explanation if you're too lazy to do any research.

I wasn’t implying they are of lesser quality but I have been curious as to why so many spots go unfilled. And yes, not being bilingual reduces the option to apply for many students to Quebec programs. And maybe practice location  post residency has a lot to do with where one would choose to do residency and restrictions in certain provinces including Quebec may factor in the decision. 

 

[GrouchoMarx]

23 hours ago, 5th time the charm said:

I wasn’t implying they are of lesser quality but I have been curious as to why so many spots go unfilled. And yes, not being bilingual reduces the option to apply for many students to Quebec programs. And maybe practice location  post residency has a lot to do with where one would choose to do residency and restrictions in certain provinces including Quebec may factor in the decision. 

 

quebec had a recent negative government vs family doctor thing that students are leaving quebec over. and most of quebec has awful winter weather. if i were in their shoes id leave too.

[Med Life Crisis]

damn where can i learn more about quebec

[Snowmen]

23 hours ago, GrouchoMarx said:

quebec had a recent negative government vs family doctor thing that students are leaving quebec over. and most of quebec has awful winter weather. if i were in their shoes id leave too.

I'd like to know what your sources are cause they seem to be very reliable.

/sarcasm

Yes, the current health minister has taken decisions that have been disliked by GPs but to say that they are leaving over it in significant numbers is just plain wrong. Also, breaking news, winter is cold.

 

[jlkhhylyiluh6]

The issue isnt that there arent enough spots- there is still a <1 ratio of canadian med students to residency spots. There is, quite literally, a spot for everyone in the match. The issue is that no one wants to do family med, specifically rural/quebec family med. Cutting med school spots doesnt solve that problem.

The real solution is to contract med school aceeptees into family med (like the military does), but good luck getting that to pass.

[#YOLO]

its quebec fam med thats left over. most fam spots in desirable spots are filled up and have their choice of the pick...things are getting tough. 

[indefatigable]

It's not worth thinking about or considering the Québec residency spots unless you're in Québec or are a francophone.  But overwhelmingly these FM spots are left over even after the second round.  If people are dead set on FM and worried about matching, they should write the MLEs - Health Canada sponsors a lot of J-1s for FM for the US.  But tbh, I'm pretty sure FM is one of the less competitive specialties out there (Vancouver and Toronto excepted).

[JohnGrisham]

2 hours ago, beeboop said:

The issue isnt that there arent enough spots- there is still a <1 ratio of canadian med students to residency spots. There is, quite literally, a spot for everyone in the match. The issue is that no one wants to do family med, specifically rural/quebec family med. Cutting med school spots doesnt solve that problem.

The real solution is to contract med school aceeptees into family med (like the military does), but good luck getting that to pass.

In western Canada, there are few FM spots left after round 1.  For english speaking only, the Quebec spots are mostly inaccessible.  

[#YOLO]

the reality is u cant just go into fm anymore..u need to have some interest or connection. 

[hamham]

3 hours ago, #YOLO said:

the reality is u cant just go into fm anymore..u need to have some interest or connection. 

Agree. I would add that even interest alone is insufficient now. I have seen applicants with no red flags and strong interest in FM going unmatched simply b/c they belittled the CaRMS process or did not apply wide enough.  

[JohnGrisham]

27 minutes ago, hamham said:

Agree. I would add that even interest alone is insufficient now. I have seen applicants with no red flags and strong interest in FM going unmatched simply b/c they belittled the CaRMS process or did not apply wide enough.  

What does "belittled the CaRMS process" mean? As in just didnt take things seriously?