so...

[rmorelan]

gezzz not another Mac flame war

 

The differences between medical schools in Canada are so relatively minor I never really understood the point of arguing. Public system with each school getting roughly the same amount of money per student makes it hard to really become extremely better than anyone else.

 

It is true you can catch a Mac student at a bad part of their training and maybe then your might think they are all weak (that poor mac student I worked with on his very first clerkship block, away at Western, doing gen surg was an example - any of us one our first week are going to suck regardless of the school). That isn't a logical point though to evaluate students.

 

also even looking though the back history is of limited usefulness - Mac has changed significantly in the way it recruited students and as a result the sort of students it actually has. That has a big impact on what those students are likely to do with their lives etc and in turn match results.

[vancity88]

Historically it had some of the worst results on the LMCC.

 

Any actual, you know, evidence of this? Mind providing us with a link to support this claim?

 

Our opinions are not anecdotal evidence - they're based on experience with Mac grads

 

Your personal experience with a couple of Mac grads is pretty much the definition of anecdotal evidence...

 

Mac grads aren't otherwise known as exceptionally talented or knowledgeable.

 

Just curious, which Canadian medical schools are known to produce "exceptionally talented" graduates? McMaster has a long list of distinguished alumni (Gordon Guyatt, James Orbinski, Roberta Bondar, etc etc etc) from its medical program who have made numerous important contributions, just like every other school has.

 

To suggest an entire school doesn't produce good people based on nothing but your own personal experience - while selectively ignoring statistics and facts (real evidence) that suggest otherwise - isn't just ludicrous, it's egomaniacal.

[spontaneouscombustion]

Do you have a link/ source for this?

 

No real source, but there's not much left for round 2 if you look at the available positions:

 

https://www.carms.ca/Rs_62Tv/Wn2R36_1OverviewByDiscipline_EN.pdf

 

Combined with some deduction from talking to people who matched this year, it seems likely that those spots left over were probably IMG spots. Likely being saved for CMG grads in second round (I know a few who only applied to Ontario and did not match).

[ploughboy]

Do you have a link/ source for this?

 

One in Ottawa* and three in London, rest of the 17 scattered outside the academic centres (which is by no means a bad thing for training, but might be perceived as being disastrously the end of the world by certain trainees)

 

 

* plus two spots at the Montfort

 

https://www.carms.ca/Rs_62Tv/Wn2R36_1OverviewByDiscipline_EN.pdf

 

 

 

Edit: Since spontaneouscombustion beat me to the citation, here's my value-add for the thread: rather than pissing and moaning about each others med schools, is there any chance that all of you best and brightest could bring the subject back to how the match went?

[spontaneouscombustion]

One in Ottawa* and three in London, rest of the 17 scattered outside the academic centres (which is by no means a bad thing for training, but might be perceived as being disastrously the end of the world by certain trainees)

 

 

* plus two spots at the Montfort

 

https://www.carms.ca/Rs_62Tv/Wn2R36_1OverviewByDiscipline_EN.pdf

 

 

 

Edit: Since spontaneouscombustion beat me to the citation, here's my value-add for the thread: rather than pissing and moaning about each others med schools, is there any chance that all of you best and brightest could bring the subject back to how the match went?

 

From looking at that list, there aren't many spots left over at all for FM. Alberta and BC seem full too. Just a few remote or rual spots in a few other provinces.

[ralk]

One in Ottawa* and three in London, rest of the 17 scattered outside the academic centres (which is by no means a bad thing for training, but might be perceived as being disastrously the end of the world by certain trainees)

 

 

* plus two spots at the Montfort

 

https://www.carms.ca/Rs_62Tv/Wn2R36_1OverviewByDiscipline_EN.pdf

 

 

 

Edit: Since spontaneouscombustion beat me to the citation, here's my value-add for the thread: rather than pissing and moaning about each others med schools, is there any chance that all of you best and brightest could bring the subject back to how the match went?

 

Those spots at Western are London Regional, not London itself - it's like a quasi-rural placement in the towns nearby. It'll be interesting to see the full stats, to get a better sense of why Family filled up so well this year!

 

*Also, apologies for my part in the Mac flame war

[thebouque]

Well sadly no one really cares about your opinion or A-Stark's. You can both stay on your high horses and keep thinking you're better. It's quite comical that you think you and someone else on some internet forums are better than world university ranking systems/thousands of people who unanimously agree Mac is a great school. Lol. Also it's the Times Higher Education rankings, not Time Magazine, look up the difference. And it's easy to dismiss someone as being egoistic when they are simply standing up to bullies. I'm sure you'd like to keep talking cr*p and have no one to tell you that actually we go to a great med school, but get used to having people who talk back when you talk sh*t. I'm sure you'd defend your med school as well if someone spoke badly about it. Your jealousy is just blatantly obvious when you have no regard for professionalism and respect for your colleagues or for the data which is staring you in your face. Our of curiosity, how many times were you rejected by Mac? Good day.

 

PS: Yeah we're a 3 year PBL school with deficiencies in our curriculum and we STILL do better than most other med schools when it comes to the match, and to the world rankings. That's how good we are. In your face.

 

haha yeah I'm so jealous cause I've been rejected 5 x from Mac. You got me!

[paintedveil]

I think depending on who you meet and who you talk to, everyone will invariably have different opinions about different schools. I think perhaps the reason why the quality of education at Mac is so contentious is because it is so unique. I was skeptical about PBL at first as well, but now I can't imagine sitting through didactic lectures all day.

 

Mac is meeting other schools in the middle as well, we do have lectures scheduled for about 6 hrs/week. Also, I think there is also general consensus that Mac grads are better at staying up to date with current literature and practicing evidence based medicine (after all Gordon Guyatt did come up with the term). As well, most of the clerkship tracts at Mac start with an elective period, so those students who begin their clerkship in other schools will invariably fall short compared to clerks who have been on other rotations already. However, it is definitely easier to fall through the cracks at Mac than at other schools.

 

Of course people who go to Mac will defend it, and there has always been competitiveness between schools as well, but one would hope that people recognize there are advantages and disadvantages to every program. It's not all just black and white, and as other people have pointed out previously the quality of education at Canadian schools is pretty equal across the board.

 

Sorry OP I couldn't contribute to discussion regarding the CaRMs process, I hope the conversation can go back to what was originally being asked.

[willy1313]

So .. If we go back to the topic !

 

General Surgery for me

So happy !!

 

Congrats to all of you !

[ratatat]

Does anyone know why Dal has an open Ophtho spot, Calgary has two open Rads, Ottawa has an open Anaesthesia spot etc?

 

It's surprising they couldn't find qualified applicants to fill those spots.

[guitarded27]

Does anyone know why Dal has an open Ophtho spot, Calgary has two open Rads, Ottawa has an open Anaesthesia spot etc?

 

It's surprising they couldn't find qualified applicants to fill those spots.

 

Ottawa and Dal both have Uro spots left over as well, and UBC has a NeuroSx spot. Funny year for matching - 7 Ortho spots left over from first round, 2 ENT, 4 NeuroSx spots open. Really poor year for the surgical specialties. Not to mention Rads with 5 unmatched spots.

 

Memorial did really poorly on FM this year - over a third of their spots went unmatched, which is somewhat surprising considering the general shift towards primary care everywhere else (slim pickings for second round spots elsewhere).

 

UT matched every single spot for a second year running - nice work on their part.

[NLengr]

Ottawa and Dal both have Uro spots left over as well, and UBC has a NeuroSx spot. Funny year for matching - 7 Ortho spots left over from first round, 2 ENT, 4 NeuroSx spots open. Really poor year for the surgical specialties. Not to mention Rads with 5 unmatched spots.

 

Memorial did really poorly on FM this year - over a third of their spots went unmatched, which is somewhat surprising considering the general shift towards primary care everywhere else (slim pickings for second round spots elsewhere).

 

UT matched every single spot for a second year running - nice work on their part.

 

Ortho has such a well known employment problem I'm not surprised. It's never was super duper competitive (a couple more applicants than seats). Perhaps the terrible job market pushed it a little so that it wouldn't fill.

 

NeuroSx is another specialty with a very well known employment problem. Again, it was never that popular, even before the job crunch hit.

 

Ottawa Uro is IMG. Dal Uro was a specific spot for MUN grads only in first round and is associated with a ROS to rural newfoundland. So it's not that surprising they wouldn't fill.

 

Maybe people are starting to get wise about the job market.

 

I was really surprised by MUN family. It's a strong program.

[Med0123]

what's up with Vancouver and Memorial Gen Surg programs? 2 and 3 seats left respectively??

[rmorelan]

Ortho has such a well known employment problem I'm not surprised. It's never was super duper competitive (a couple more applicants than seats). Perhaps the terrible job market pushed it a little so that it wouldn't fill.

 

NeuroSx is another specialty with a very well known employment problem. Again, it was never that popular, even before the job crunch hit.

 

Ottawa Uro is IMG. Dal Uro was a specific spot for MUN grads only in first round and is associated with a ROS to rural newfoundland. So it's not that surprising they wouldn't fill.

 

Maybe people are starting to get wise about the job market.

 

I was really surprised by MUN family. It's a strong program.

 

and/or the job market information is just becoming more and more profound. I mean if you wanted urology and the market is soft you might go for it anyway. If the market to continues to worsen as people think that way and it become dead it is an entirely different matter

 

a lot of people really did take a shine to family medicine this year!

[alanine]

what's up with Vancouver and Memorial Gen Surg programs? 2 and 3 seats left respectively??

 

I have a feeling they got "cocky". At least UBC, I heard they only interviewed like 25 people...much less than the other programs...so it seems like those people chose to go somewhere else...

[rmorelan]

I have a feeling they got "cocky". At least UBC, I heard they only interviewed like 25 people...much less than the other programs...so it seems like those people chose to go somewhere else...

 

I always wonder if it is cockiness or simply they only found 25 people say they were potentially interested in. There isn't as much pressure as you might expect to fill the roster in many cases

[A-Stark]

I have a feeling they got "cocky". At least UBC, I heard they only interviewed like 25 people...much less than the other programs...so it seems like those people chose to go somewhere else...

 

I'm really not sure what happened with MUN. I don't remember those spots not feeling recently. Perhaps a much less competitive year for gen surg?

 

As for UBC, the program has a poor reputation, especially for resident morale. But it may have just been an IMG spot(s) they elected not to fill.

 

It's very hard to read into these results except where there are persistent patterns (e.g. Sask IM never filling in the first iteration).

[Jochi1543]

I always wonder if it is cockiness or simply they only found 25 people say they were potentially interested in. There isn't as much pressure as you might expect to fill the roster in many cases

 

Yeah, just dump more work and more call on fewer residents!

[Para14zers]

For Gen Surg, UBC definitely did not interview very many people this year and combined with the poor reputation they've developed, they likely didn't have people rank them nearly as high.

 

Also, MUN sent out invites very late this year due to weather/power outage issues and I know a lot of the candidates had assumed they didn't get the interview and already booked flights home (they were the last stop). They ended up not interviewing many either because of this.

[albmeds]

Is it just me or based on what is left for family medicine, that this was a very competitive year for fam med. The 6-7 unfilled spots for rads is surprising. Its hard to know if its due to less people wanting it or programs not ranking everyone they interview. It just seems like a stark contrast from two years ago when I remember people who were aiming for rads went unmatched.

[rmorelan]

Is it just me or based on what is left for family medicine, that this was a very competitive year for fam med. The 6-7 unfilled spots for rads is surprising. Its hard to know if its due to less people wanting it or programs not ranking everyone they interview. It just seems like a stark contrast from two years ago when I remember people who were aiming for rads went unmatched.

 

with rads we know it was less people wanting it. Lowest number of applicants is quite some time actually

[hkmedic]

I think this year was a competitive year for everything. Combined with the increasing med school class sizes and stagnant residency program sizes... meant more people going unmatched. Ottawa had 12 unmatched this year.

[ellorie]

As far as I hear it, UWO had 8.

[spontaneouscombustion]

I think this year was a competitive year for everything. Combined with the increasing med school class sizes and stagnant residency program sizes... meant more people going unmatched. Ottawa had 12 unmatched this year.

 

Yup. A couple at our school that only applied to Ontario FM went unmatched, and as far as most people can tell they were decent candidates - no red flags, at least.

[A-Stark]

Dal had a bit more than 10 from what I understand.