Showing Growth in Applying 2nd Time

[unmatched2022]

Hi, I'm one of the many many people unmatched this year who applied to competitive specialties... In my case, plastic surgery specifically

I spoke with one of the residents at my program, and they told me that I didn't demonstrate the same "team player" qualities as my peers. I'm taking the year off to re-apply, but was wondering what you would consider ways to improve on this, to show growth, and importantly... to actually be a better team player. I personally felt that I was a team player and so did my referees, but evidently this did not come through in my application, interview, or in the final discussions of me as an applicant.

I was told this was significant in my application to my home school, but that it likely did not follow me to the other schools I applied though.

Thoughts or ideas?

[McMasterMD]

Hmm. I don't exactly know what that means to be honest. Did you get along with your home school residents? Seems like they may have said something about you.

Are you confident that all of the other aspects of your application were strong? e.g. extra-curriculars, research, reference letters, personal statements? Did the interviews go well? 

 

[shikimate]

This is gonna get really speculative, but maybe there are someone at your school whom you might have unintentionally/unknowingly pissed off. Sometimes it's completely random but maybe whatever you said or did they got a bad "vibe". I've seen that happen many times, like a med student comes onto the team and within a couple of days the senior resident complain they don't like that student, but then doesn't really say what made them feel that way, just get pissy for the sake of get pissy. 

On the DDX is that maybe there was a more favored applicant, like maybe children of someone with connection etc. So they were a "team player" because obviously their dad/mom already bought them a ticket onto the team. Again just all speculative.

On the flip side I've seen strong med students get a bit too haughty thinking they know all the answers and can outdo the other residents and med students. Not implying this is you but sometimes people might perceive someone as acting that way when it's not really their intentions.

[unmatched2022]

Good points @shikimate! Don't think I was ever too haughty, but I agree... Has to be a vibe thing? Never any explicit incidents. So confused. So sad, so disappointed tbh.

[lovemedicinesomuch]

1 minute ago, unmatched2022 said:

Good points @shikimate! Don't think I was ever too haughty, but I agree... Has to be a vibe thing? Never any explicit incidents. So confused. So sad, so disappointed tbh.

A lot of times it is someone's subjective feelings about you - it may be true or it may not be true. Your best bet is to try to improve whatever 'deficiency' you may perceive to be the cause of you to be perceived as not a 'team player' and hope that people perceive you in the way you hope to convey yourself in the upcoming year. I wish you all the best.

 

[1D7]

Not being a team player is vague but it can include...

• Not working well with other medical students or residents
• Not working postcall (if it is an expectation in that specialty)
• Taking a break when the rest of the team is working or if you were working noticeably less hard than the rest of the team
• Not going above-and-beyond when it comes to completing work (esp work a medical student can mostly do autonomously that would otherwise take up resident time)

At the end of the day if it's competitive, sometimes you could have done everything right but someone else just did it a bit better or in a way where it was more enjoyable to work with them.

 

[1029384756md]

Sorry hate to say this, but not being a team player is really just saying they feel you are not a good fit with the group. It's probably something beyond your control, e.g. your gender, race, personality, political views, etc. It's stupid but it's how things are - people enjoy others who are like them. If they really wanted you in their program they would've given you more constructive feedback i.e. do x and y and z to get in next time.

I suggest scratching this this program off your list. Best of luck!

[HoopDreams]

I'm sorry to hear that this year did not go as planned.

Assuming the resident that told you so is someone that you can trust and who is reliable, I think that you can start by doing some introspection and try to see if you think you can find areas to improve. Sometimes the simple fact that the residents know that someone is a future applicant makes them a bit more sensitive to any form of eagerness or over-demonstration of interest because there is a fine line between being interested and being a gunner. Could it be possible you try to do way more than your peers and reduced their exposure to certain cases? Truth is you will never know.

On the other hand, I would take this comment with a grain of salt, like others have said. How many times did I get praised because of the way I did something only to have the next staff comment on the exact same thing as a major weakness.  'Getting along' and 'being a good fit' are extremely subjective things that you can't control. I also feel that 'gossip' plays a major role in labeling someone.

I did an IM rotation with a big team and one student from my cohort that was interested in IM. My colleague acted completely normal and was assigned more patients since she was being helpful. She had once forgot to do a task (ie. follow-up on a consult type of thing) with a patient and the staff was pissed off , blamed the resident and the resident blamed the student. From that point on, they simply did not like her and would find areas of weakness to comment on. It sucked because I truly felt it was unfair. Her eval was mostly focused around that. 

If you truly have a reliable source telling you that you are labeled as a 'bad team player' it sounds to me that you don't want to train there. 

Best of luck!

 

 

[HoopDreams]

Double post sorry.

[shikimate]

Perception of someone can really vary depending on the staff/resident. There is a lot of politics within a department, like which staff has more control over which aspect etc. Sometimes you have 1 or 2 very focal people who either strongly likes or dislikes a student. Sometimes the PD is a "lame duck" and there are more senior people behind the scenes who control the process.

This is often very hard to decipher by an outsider unless you have an "insider tip line" like a senior resident or staff, or even secretary/admin staff who knows the department well. If this is your home program, and you are unable to pinpoint specific person(s) who are against you, then you might have to lower your expectations for this program in the next round. You might even be better off focusing more on other programs that perceive you with a "clean sheet".

[Edict]

In specialties where you spend a lot of time with the individual, being a team player can become the most important thing. It's a rule out requirement, i.e. most people meet this and aren't screened out, but if you are, it doesn't matter any of your other qualifications, it will rule you out even if you are the strongest applicant on paper.  

I have heard you can obtain your reference letters from CaRMS. I would suggest doing this, find out what was said, because if you didn't match across the country, it is unlikely word from your home program would have travelled to every program across the country. 

[Findanus]

On 4/22/2022 at 3:30 PM, unmatched2022 said:

Hi, I'm one of the many many people unmatched this year who applied to competitive specialties...

I spoke with one of the residents at my program, and they told me that I didn't demonstrate the same "team player" qualities as my peers. I'm taking the year off to re-apply, but was wondering what you would consider ways to improve on this, to show growth, and importantly... to actually be a better team player. I personally felt that I was a team player and so did my referees, but evidently this did not come through in my application, interview, or in the final discussions of me as an applicant.

I was told this was significant in my application to my home school, but that it likely did not follow me to the other schools I applied though.

Thoughts or ideas?

Don't pay attention to this. It's nonspecific and unhelpful. Subjective people factors influence the match process far more than they should. Things like looks, social class, and family ties are key factors in match success. Aside from looks, and only minimally, you can't change these. It sucks but that's part of the game. Your best strategy is to maximize your opportunities by also preparing an application to the USA for next year, in addition to bolstering your academic credentials with publications, hopefully establishing relationships with important people along the way. I hope next year works out better.

[GH0ST]

2 minutes ago, Findanus said:

Don't pay attention to this. It's nonspecific and unhelpful. Subjective people factors influence the match process far more than they should. Things like looks, social class, and family ties are key factors in match success. Aside from looks, and only minimally, you can't change these. It sucks but that's part of the game. Your best strategy is to maximize your opportunities by also preparing an application to the USA for next year, in addition to bolstering your academic credentials with publications, hopefully establishing relationships with important people along the way. I hope next year works out better.

disagree wholeheartedly... no point in ignoring all feedback... this idea of blaming everything on other factors outside of your control is silly, defeatist, and unbecoming of a physician that is supposed to take responsibility for what they do. 

- G

[Findanus]

5 minutes ago, GH0ST said:

disagree wholeheartedly... no point in ignoring all feedback... this idea of blaming everything on other factors outside of your control is silly, defeatist, and unbecoming of a physician that is supposed to take responsibility for what they do. 

- G

I'm happy to have a discussion. The feedback in that student's case was nonspecific and boilerplate, and provided no helpful information for their future endeavors. Acknowledging it as relevant serves to only plant seeds of self doubt, perhaps without need. If specific instances of the student's relatively weaker teamwork capabilities were provided, in the context of knowing what the competition did that was better, then it would be something to consider.

Acknowledging helpful feedback is important. Part of being a student is knowing what you should ignore and what you should adopt. There is nothing unbecoming of a physician or defeatist in that.

[GH0ST]

Just now, Findanus said:

I'm happy to have a discussion. The feedback in that student's case was nonspecific and boilerplate, and provided no helpful information for their future endeavors. Acknowledging it as relevant serves to only plant seeds of self doubt, perhaps without need. If specific instances of the student's relatively weaker teamwork capabilities were provided, in the context of knowing what the competition did that was better, then it would be something to consider.

Acknowledging helpful feedback is important. Part of being a student is knowing what you should ignore and what you should adopt. There is nothing unbecoming of a physician or defeatist in that.

Except you're assuming he should ignore that though just from what's written and we don't really know enough about the situation to judge... maybe this individual should take the time to reflect and see what "a team player" meant. We have no idea if there were feedback for the person during the rotation for this person either. 

Having self-doubt isn't abnormal either... I'm sure when we get negative feedback that it can make us feel uncomfortable, but it's just as important to look at ways to improve and lean on our support system to gain more from the experience. 

This is setting aside your absolute statement of "don't pay attention to this" and now you're backpedalling. You then go on to talk about factors outside of the OP's control as a means to deflect. Do you honestly think that deflection, regardless of how true or false the statement, is becoming of a physician? 

Not to derail the thread though as I think the OP's question has been reasonably answered. I won't be responding any further. 

- G 

 

[Findanus]

5 minutes ago, GH0ST said:

Except you're assuming he should ignore that though just from what's written and we don't really know enough about the situation to judge... maybe this individual should take the time to reflect and see what "a team player" meant. We have no idea if there were feedback for the person during the rotation for this person either. 

Having self-doubt isn't abnormal either... I'm sure when we get negative feedback that it can make us feel uncomfortable, but it's just as important to look at ways to improve and lean on our support system to gain more from the experience. 

This is setting aside your absolute statement of "don't pay attention to this" and now you're backpedalling. You then go on to talk about factors outside of the OP's control as a means to deflect. Do you honestly think that deflection, regardless of how true or false the statement, is becoming of a physician? 

Not to derail the thread though as I think the OP's question has been reasonably answered. I won't be responding any further. 

- G 

 

Alright, have a good day.

[Monkey D. Luffy]

OP, would you consider emailing the PD to politely request a short meeting to discuss your interest in their program and plans for applying the following year? I would suspect they would provide you more specific information and you will likely be able to judge from how it goes whether or not you were just not ranked high enough or if you were blacklisted permanently. The fact that this feedback just came from a resident is a bit suspect- was this resident on the selection committee or is this just some random resident in the program? Either way, I think meeting with the PD would answer a lot of questions and guide your decision making.

Also I just wanted to add that so much of this process is out of our control. Even if you do everything right, you can still get unlucky. I know going through being unmatched sucks, but please don't think this result reflects at all on your personality or professional capabilities as a future resident/person in general.

[unmatched2022]

Great points from everyone, @Findanusand @GH0STncluded. I agree part of it seems vague, but I don't think it's logical to just dismiss this. If it's plausibly true, then I need to make sure that in the future this criticism is implausible. We can all improve. Glad to hear though that it seems vague too.

Not sure why you keep bringing the USA up @Findanus

 

[familymedkeen]

1 hour ago, GH0ST said:

Except you're assuming he should ignore that though just from what's written and we don't really know enough about the situation to judge... maybe this individual should take the time to reflect and see what "a team player" meant. We have no idea if there were feedback for the person during the rotation for this person either. 

Having self-doubt isn't abnormal either... I'm sure when we get negative feedback that it can make us feel uncomfortable, but it's just as important to look at ways to improve and lean on our support system to gain more from the experience. 

This is setting aside your absolute statement of "don't pay attention to this" and now you're backpedalling. You then go on to talk about factors outside of the OP's control as a means to deflect. Do you honestly think that deflection, regardless of how true or false the statement, is becoming of a physician? 

Not to derail the thread though as I think the OP's question has been reasonably answered. I won't be responding any further. 

- G 

 

I think feedback in medicine can be subjective and sometimes it can contradict itself. I think a person should accept any feedback given - but ultimately it is important to look for patterns of feedback. Has this person been told by multiple people that they are not a team player? Maybe people don't enjoy working with them? Maybe they are not as hardworking as others? Maybe they don't ask for help compromising patient's health? Maybe they don't celebrate other team members success? Is there a pattern of behaviour noted from multiple supervisors.

In general, I think most feedback provided is true to certain extent- as most people dislike giving negative feedback. I think OP should find ways in which they perhaps were not a team player ( it is okay to have faults - and to acknowledge them and work to improve them - we are all humans and we may have traits that may work against our success). However,  it may also not be relevant if it is only a one time event. I feel that sometimes in electives people can make snap decisions about students ( I have seen it happen multiple times - where a med students gets blackballed in a rotation for a silly reason). 

 

OP, I do suggest speaking with PD candidly - about what can be done to improve.However, you also need to be open to the fact that sometimes when people make a decision about your soft skills - it is hard to change their minds unfortunately. It may be wise to look into other programs and other specialties as well.

[1029384756md]

1 hour ago, unmatched2022 said:

Great points from everyone, @Findanusand @GH0STncluded. I agree part of it seems vague, but I don't think it's logical to just dismiss this. If it's plausibly true, then I need to make sure that in the future this criticism is implausible. We can all improve. Glad to hear though that it seems vague too.

Not sure why you keep bringing the USA up @Findanus

 

See that's the problem. No matter what you do they can always fall back on "he/she wasn't a team player enough." I echo what others have said above: talk to the PD directly. If she/he gives you the same vague BS excuse without clear tangible directions on how to get accepted next time, best to swallow your pride and move on to greener pastures. There's always another group of people who will like working with you and your life will be so much easier if you can find them.

[unmatched2022]

Thanks everyone. Hopefully I end up a plastic surgeon eventually, but we'll see. Going to try again.

[McMasterMD]

 

6 hours ago, unmatched2022 said:

Thanks everyone. Hopefully I end up a plastic surgeon eventually, but we'll see. Going to try again.

First impressions matter, especially in such a small and extremely competitive field. Thing that especially sucks in your case is that there are no visiting electives. So you are essentially stuck working at your home program.... but if they already don’t like you and don’t think that you’re a “team player”, you, unfortunately, won’t be able to do much to suddenly change everyone's minds about you. Remember, that prior to Covid, all it took was 2 weeks of away electives for the program (residents + staff) to make up their minds about an applicant. You’ve been at your home school for 4 years, so they know you very well. 
 

It’s tough man. Good luck next year! My advice would be to seriously consider parallel planning next year, applying in the second iteration this year, or consider doing your steps to also apply in the US to maximize your chances of matching to plastic surgery. From what I’ve heard, of all the PEEDO specialties, only Ophthalmology seriously considers re-applicants. 

[indefatigable]

Matching to the discipline will unfortunately be an uphill battle.  

If this is accurate feedback, then they've already come to a consensus decision about you based on a relatively damaging assessment.  You will have to not only undo that consensus but come across as more competitive than the fresh grads.  This will be tough since you will then be a repeat applicant with potential other baggage.  

I echo the advice of others in terms of parallel planning - transfers have also happened in plastics. I also know that plastics has also taken repeat applicants but you would really have to be a superstar at your home program in your gap time likely to have a chance.  The PD discussion, if it occurs, would be the single most important predictor of your future chances - it would be important to tactfully address the major concern.  I would consider having a plan in place (with at least one thing focused on "team work") and asking for feedback if there's nothing really suggested.  There are other programs sure, but home program is always the most likely especially with no away electives.

Finally, I don't think the US is realistic - even Step 1 & 2 will be way too time consuming, not to mention that plastics is probably even more competitive for most programs there.  

13 hours ago, Edict said:

I have heard you can obtain your reference letters from CaRMS. I would suggest doing this, find out what was said, because if you didn't match across the country, it is unlikely word from your home program would have travelled to every program across the country. 

This policy was unfortunately being abused and has now been discontinued.  Some applicants were getting letters before CaRMS deadline and apparently requesting modifications to the letter writers- so letters are now no longer released to anyone at anytime.  

https://carms.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409984307725-Previously-applicants-were-able-to-request-and-obtain-reference-materials-and-third-party-assessment-information-provided-through-CaRMS-for-their-applications-Why-has-this-changed-

[dooogs]

Is it weird to ask a staff or resident that you’ve met a couple times how you fit in with the team ? Is it too direct ? As someone that overthinks this, I’d rather know then keep wondering 

[Edict]

1 hour ago, indefatigable said:

Matching to the discipline will unfortunately be an uphill battle.  

If this is accurate feedback, then they've already come to a consensus decision about you based on a relatively damaging assessment.  You will have to not only undo that consensus but come across as more competitive than the fresh grads.  This will be tough since you will then be a repeat applicant with potential other baggage.  

I echo the advice of others in terms of parallel planning - transfers have also happened in plastics. I also know that plastics has also taken repeat applicants but you would really have to be a superstar at your home program in your gap time likely to have a chance.  The PD discussion, if it occurs, would be the single most important predictor of your future chances - it would be important to tactfully address the major concern.  I would consider having a plan in place (with at least one thing focused on "team work") and asking for feedback if there's nothing really suggested.  There are other programs sure, but home program is always the most likely especially with no away electives.

Finally, I don't think the US is realistic - even Step 1 & 2 will be way too time consuming, not to mention that plastics is probably even more competitive for most programs there.  

This policy was unfortunately being abused and has now been discontinued.  Some applicants were getting letters before CaRMS deadline and apparently requesting modifications to the letter writers- so letters are now no longer released to anyone at anytime.  

https://carms.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409984307725-Previously-applicants-were-able-to-request-and-obtain-reference-materials-and-third-party-assessment-information-provided-through-CaRMS-for-their-applications-Why-has-this-changed-

Wow seems like this change is new, unfortunate