What's On Your Mind?

[makingfetchhappen]

At least u guys got paid well in the end. What does a 10 year postdoc have to show for? A divorce paper plus a one bedroom apartment whereas the slaveowner, cough, I mean the PI is taking his sweet ass vacation in Hawaii after he calls you a failure. Now that's some real human greed.

I don't know how much post grads make, but you might be surprised at what a lot of young lawyers make. Having an apartment to myself with my student loans is out of reach lol.

 

I have heard that academia is a pretty bad culture of exploitation. So I definitely empathize.

 

If by "in the end" you mean once you get up to partner level, well it is not something you can count on. The whole system depends on people leaving private practice before they get there. I don't see it happening for me or a lot of my friends. You can always start up your own practice, but hiring any support staff is out of reach mostly.

[武田信玄]

I don't know how much post grads make, but you might be surprised at what a lot of young lawyers make. Having an apartment to myself with my student loans is out of reach lol.

I have heard that academia is a pretty bad culture of exploitation. So I definitely empathize.

If by "in the end" you mean once you get up to partner level, well it is not something you can count on. The whole system depends on people leaving private practice before they get there. I don't see it happening for me or a lot of my friends. You can always start up your own practice, but hiring any support staff is out of reach mostly.

How much does a law school grad usually make 5 years after graduating, if u don't mind me asking?

[Sigmund Freud]

LOL. That awkward moment when you attend an event at UOttawa Med and almost run into a medical student you matched with on Tinder (x2). I'm crying with laughter.

[makingfetchhappen]

Let's see. I finished 7 years ago and I interviewed at another Bay Street boutique a few months ago and the salary range was $70K to $90K. I know people up to ten years out making less than $100K on Bay. At a big firm though, you can make as much as $130K plus bonus upto $30K. This is good but also rare. The vast majority are still making less than six figures in their first ten years.

 

As a lawyer you can usually find a job that will pay $60, but that's assuming that you can find a job at all. I'm really lucky because I graduated before the recession. There are a lot of lawyers who are much brighter than I am who have been left out of the job market post recession.

 

How much do post grads make? I only know a couple people in academia other than my old profs, they tended to make $30K during their studies but Now they are profs and make $80-$100K. Hard to get a job as a prof though.

[武田信玄]

How much do post grads make? I only know a couple people in academia other than my old profs, they tended to make $30K during their studies but Now they are profs and make $80-$100K. Hard to get a job as a prof though.

I can only speak for biomeds. PhD student makes 25k while post doc makes 40k. Research associate, which is a level higher than postdoc, makes around 60k. Also you have to consider the fact that all of these guys are not on formal contract so there's no job security.

 

On the other hand, if you are a lab technician, starting salary is 40k, and you can become a tech right after undergrad. Makes you wonder what all these years of education is for.

[武田信玄]

O btw no benefits for postdoc and associate

[Colonel]

You working as a post doc? Sounds like you got beef with your PI lol

[武田信玄]

You working as a post doc? Sounds like you got beef with your PI lol

No...but I've seen enough tragedies

[Colonel]

Experienced war veteran

[武田信玄]

Experienced war veteran

[IMislove]

Had an interview for a summer job, let's see what happens xD. Summer is going to be packed with studying for the MCAT as well, lend me your strength fellow premeders!

[Friendly Magpie]

Had an interview for a summer job, let's see what happens xD. Summer is going to be packed with studying for the MCAT as well, lend me your strength fellow premeders!

 

Here is some strength for you.  I hope that you get the job. 

 

I'll be working over the summer too (returning to my regular job after being off for eight months actually) and studying for the new MCAT as well.   My books arrived yesterday, so the MCAT studying will begin once the semester is done.

[IMislove]

Here is some strength for you.  I hope that you get the job. 

 

I'll be working over the summer too (returning to my regular job after being off for eight months actually) and studying for the new MCAT as well.   My books arrived yesterday, so the MCAT studying will begin once the semester is done.

 Thank you, I felt good about it, maybe a few slip ups but everything else A+ xD. Good luck to us both. Full Time +MCAT is tough, done it once before, BUT it can be done. Focus, and know what's at stake and maybe some coffee and you should be good .

[Sigmund Freud]

Had an interview for a summer job, let's see what happens xD. Summer is going to be packed with studying for the MCAT as well, lend me your strength fellow premeders!

Sending strength, courage, and good vibes your way! Hopefully all goes well!

 

I'll be writing the new MCAT this summer as well. I probably won't be able to secure a job though - the job market back home (rural country) is a crapshoot. 

[Harvey Specter]

I'm really interested to hear feedback about the new MMI. 

[Dr. Octavius]

Let's see. I finished 7 years ago and I interviewed at another Bay Street boutique a few months ago and the salary range was $70K to $90K. I know people up to ten years out making less than $100K on Bay. At a big firm though, you can make as much as $130K plus bonus upto $30K. This is good but also rare. The vast majority are still making less than six figures in their first ten years.

 

As a lawyer you can usually find a job that will pay $60, but that's assuming that you can find a job at all. I'm really lucky because I graduated before the recession. There are a lot of lawyers who are much brighter than I am who have been left out of the job market post recession.

 

How much do post grads make? I only know a couple people in academia other than my old profs, they tended to make $30K during their studies but Now they are profs and make $80-$100K. Hard to get a job as a prof though.

I find this very interesting. I know a lawyer who works in the GTA (not downtown) and purchased an approximately $200k sports car two years out from their articling position. Also live in quite an expensive home. Early thirties now. Perhaps they just come from money? In a lot of debt? Hm, they fit the profile of what I originally thought a lawyer's earning potential was. How many people do you know like this?

[sentimentalscenery]

Various things. 

 

I'm envious of people who says they are "Sacrificing personal life" doing medicine (because I have no personal life to sacrifice - no friends, no significant others nothing) and I realize although I do complain a bit about hectic life and being with people that I equally care less about, instead of liberation when there's long holiday (summer for preclerkship), it fills me with a dread because then I have absolutely nothing to do and it fills me up with sadness. I mean I have to study - have to know so much but I just want to do something fun...and usually it seems like fun involves being with people - or at least being with greater number of people affords more diverse experience and teaches you how to act around people (which is useful when practicing med)

 

It just feels like vicious cycle - no people skill - no friends- no friends thus no people skill.

 

I gave up long time ago to give a shit or heart to people in my class when there was no reciprocated response. I felt like I was the only one who had to try hard and to go back to very little friends I have, I felt like its because I had no other choice but to hang out with them.

I feel I should be able to choose to do thing, choose to be around person I like etc. but that can never happens because other people already have formed a friend circle and gives no shit about other people who are not part of the clique. I don't like that I'm forced to hang out with certain individuals in class because I'm part of that 'clique'

 

I also don't like rejection, like alot. before I wondered oh how come there's always an empty seat next to me, but now it feel like a plain rejection and my logic is before I'm rejected I will reject them. I know it sounds unhealthy...because perception leads to behaviour and the negative outcome...

 

But I do long for human warmth and it all seems so complicating.

 

because I felt limited with people I was around, I joined other things, other group and intermural sports that will allow me to interact with others.

However, I felt that even those other groups consisted of core people who were already sharing the clique and intermural sports team as well. So, when the final game and I found out that I was the only one who didn't get notified - I sent a group e-mail asking what has happened - no reply from a person who usually sets the group no apologies, just 2 girls who happened to be on the group gave me an awkward smile saying 'oh...' 

 

 

I feel like I don't have the greatest reputation either and I feel everyone is unfriendly, unapproachable and genuinely fake. As in instead of seeing another person as a colleague and put an effort to treat the person with most civilized manner as what normal person does they judge you based on who you hangs out with, (oh not part of my clique - I don't care about you mentality) or not hangs out with and deem not worthy I guess - the direct effect is intentionally sitting away from you (thanks for making it obvious)

 

Over 2 years of pre-clerkship I realized instead of feeling blessed meeting all these high-achieving amazing people who consistently put the class average to 80s, proportion to my expectation, the disgust fills me when I see such behaviors. And also disgust at myself, because I'm probably as fake and disgusting as all my class mates are.

 

 

how do you find genuine people? how do you maintain friendship? (what do you do, what do you talk about? ) how do you truly look out for each other when we are practicing?? 

[thsc]

Various things. 

 

I'm envious of people who says they are "Sacrificing personal life" doing medicine (because I have no personal life to sacrifice - no friends, no significant others nothing) and I realize although I do complain a bit about hectic life and being with people that I equally care less about, instead of liberation when there's long holiday (summer for preclerkship), it fills me with a dread because then I have absolutely nothing to do and it fills me up with sadness. I mean I have to study - have to know so much but I just want to do something fun...and usually it seems like fun involves being with people - or at least being with greater number of people affords more diverse experience and teaches you how to act around people (which is useful when practicing med)

 

It just feels like vicious cycle - no people skill - no friends- no friends thus no people skill.

 

I gave up long time ago to give a shit or heart to people in my class when there was no reciprocated response. I felt like I was the only one who had to try hard and to go back to very little friends I have, I felt like its because I had no other choice but to hang out with them.

I feel I should be able to choose to do thing, choose to be around person I like etc. but that can never happens because other people already have formed a friend circle and gives no shit about other people who are not part of the clique. I don't like that I'm forced to hang out with certain individuals in class because I'm part of that 'clique'

 

I also don't like rejection, like alot. before I wondered oh how come there's always an empty seat next to me, but now it feel like a plain rejection and my logic is before I'm rejected I will reject them. I know it sounds unhealthy...because perception leads to behaviour and the negative outcome...

 

But I do long for human warmth and it all seems so complicating.

 

because I felt limited with people I was around, I joined other things, other group and intermural sports that will allow me to interact with others.

However, I felt that even those other groups consisted of core people who were already sharing the clique and intermural sports team as well. So, when the final game and I found out that I was the only one who didn't get notified - I sent a group e-mail asking what has happened - no reply from a person who usually sets the group no apologies, just 2 girls who happened to be on the group gave me an awkward smile saying 'oh...' 

 

 

I feel like I don't have the greatest reputation either and I feel everyone is unfriendly, unapproachable and genuinely fake. As in instead of seeing another person as a colleague and put an effort to treat the person with most civilized manner as what normal person does they judge you based on who you hangs out with, (oh not part of my clique - I don't care about you mentality) or not hangs out with and deem not worthy I guess - the direct effect is intentionally sitting away from you (thanks for making it obvious)

 

Over 2 years of pre-clerkship I realized instead of feeling blessed meeting all these high-achieving amazing people who consistently put the class average to 80s, proportion to my expectation, the disgust fills me when I see such behaviors. And also disgust at myself, because I'm probably as fake and disgusting as all my class mates are.

 

 

how do you find genuine people? how do you maintain friendship? (what do you do, what do you talk about? ) how do you truly look out for each other when we are practicing?? 

Just out of curiosity, which school is this? 

[amichel]

Various things.

 

I'm envious of people who says they are "Sacrificing personal life" doing medicine (because I have no personal life to sacrifice - no friends, no significant others nothing) and I realize although I do complain a bit about hectic life and being with people that I equally care less about, instead of liberation when there's long holiday (summer for preclerkship), it fills me with a dread because then I have absolutely nothing to do and it fills me up with sadness. I mean I have to study - have to know so much but I just want to do something fun...and usually it seems like fun involves being with people - or at least being with greater number of people affords more diverse experience and teaches you how to act around people (which is useful when practicing med)

 

It just feels like vicious cycle - no people skill - no friends- no friends thus no people skill.

 

I gave up long time ago to give a shit or heart to people in my class when there was no reciprocated response. I felt like I was the only one who had to try hard and to go back to very little friends I have, I felt like its because I had no other choice but to hang out with them.

I feel I should be able to choose to do thing, choose to be around person I like etc. but that can never happens because other people already have formed a friend circle and gives no shit about other people who are not part of the clique. I don't like that I'm forced to hang out with certain individuals in class because I'm part of that 'clique'

 

I also don't like rejection, like alot. before I wondered oh how come there's always an empty seat next to me, but now it feel like a plain rejection and my logic is before I'm rejected I will reject them. I know it sounds unhealthy...because perception leads to behaviour and the negative outcome...

 

But I do long for human warmth and it all seems so complicating.

 

because I felt limited with people I was around, I joined other things, other group and intermural sports that will allow me to interact with others.

However, I felt that even those other groups consisted of core people who were already sharing the clique and intermural sports team as well. So, when the final game and I found out that I was the only one who didn't get notified - I sent a group e-mail asking what has happened - no reply from a person who usually sets the group no apologies, just 2 girls who happened to be on the group gave me an awkward smile saying 'oh...'

 

 

I feel like I don't have the greatest reputation either and I feel everyone is unfriendly, unapproachable and genuinely fake. As in instead of seeing another person as a colleague and put an effort to treat the person with most civilized manner as what normal person does they judge you based on who you hangs out with, (oh not part of my clique - I don't care about you mentality) or not hangs out with and deem not worthy I guess - the direct effect is intentionally sitting away from you (thanks for making it obvious)

 

Over 2 years of pre-clerkship I realized instead of feeling blessed meeting all these high-achieving amazing people who consistently put the class average to 80s, proportion to my expectation, the disgust fills me when I see such behaviors. And also disgust at myself, because I'm probably as fake and disgusting as all my class mates are.

 

 

how do you find genuine people? how do you maintain friendship? (what do you do, what do you talk about? ) how do you truly look out for each other when we are practicing??

I don't really have any advice for you, just wanted to say I've been there and I'm sorry.

 

There are probably people in your class who feel the same way. See if you can seek them out.

 

Let me know if you ever need to talk.

[makingfetchhappen]

I find this very interesting. I know a lawyer who works in the GTA (not downtown) and purchased an approximately $200k sports car two years out from their articling position. Also live in quite an expensive home. Early thirties now. Perhaps they just come from money? In a lot of debt? Hm, they fit the profile of what I originally thought a lawyer's earning potential was. How many people do you know like this?

Haha, I know exactly zero people like that. I know a few people who had parental help getting through law school and buying property. 

 

But max articling salary at your biggest, highest paying downtown firm is $1,450 per week. Max starting salary at the same firms is $100K plus a shot at a $30K bonus. Bonuses are extremely uncommon outside of big downtown firms (even a lot of OCI firms have no bonus). 

 

You could work at the highest paying firm in Toronto and your parents could have paid your way through law school and gave you a down payment for a place, and there still would be no $200K sports car, unless they got it for you. No bank  is crazy enough to loan you that sort of money. Law students only get $60K for an LOC for good reason. 

 

I know exactly one person who paid his own way and has a sports car and a place at this point, but he has been working at one of the top paying big firms for 7 years now, he has a small condo, and his sports car is pre-owned and therefore the payments are about the same as a new Volkswagen.

[Dr. Octavius]

Haha, I know exactly zero people like that. I know a few people who had parental help getting through law school and buying property. 

 

But max articling salary at your biggest, highest paying downtown firm is $1,450 per week. Max starting salary at the same firms is $100K plus a shot at a $30K bonus. Bonuses are extremely uncommon outside of big downtown firms (even a lot of OCI firms have no bonus). 

 

You could work at the highest paying firm in Toronto and your parents could have paid your way through law school and gave you a down payment for a place, and there still would be no $200K sports car, unless they got it for you. No bank  is crazy enough to loan you that sort of money. Law students only get $60K for an LOC for good reason. 

 

I know exactly one person who paid his own way and has a sports car and a place at this point, but he has been working at one of the top paying big firms for 7 years now, he has a small condo, and his sports car is pre-owned and therefore the payments are about the same as a new Volkswagen.

Haha, I'm still wracking my brain as to how they did it. Out of curiosity, what is the revenue of those top-paying practices that you mentioned? Theirs brings in about 10mil per annum. 9-10 lawyers working there. Don't know her parent's situation, so I can't comment on that aspect. It's interesting that apparently things are never as they seem... 

[makingfetchhappen]

Haha, I'm still wracking my brain as to how they did it. Out of curiosity, what is the revenue of those top-paying practices that you mentioned? Theirs brings in about 10mil per annum. 9-10 lawyers working there. Don't know her parent's situation, so I can't comment on that aspect. It's interesting that apparently things are never as they seem... 

That's like a million per lawyer, that's really high! Usually it's much easier to know what the salaries are than what gross revenues are. Your friend told you about gross revenues but not her salary?

 

$1 million is a pretty good book for a senior lawyer to have, and that's including fees collected from more junior lawyer's work. A junior like your Ferrari buying friend there wouldn't be able to generate more than about $350,000 to $400K a year I think, and then most of that goes to the partners and some to overhead, including staff (so max $100K for your friend).

 

There's also a difference between what you can bill and what you can collect. For example, if I had a 1st or 2nd year lawyer write a factum for me, I wouldn't be surprised if they billed 20 hours just to research and write a factum for a motion. In that case, I'd need to cut the bill in half. Poof, half the hours billed are gone... This depends on the area of law. Corporate would probably be the exception where most of the hours billed are collected on.

 

Personal injury law could be another exception. If they are very good at what they do, their revenues are not constrained by hours.  That's who you want if you ever get injured in a car accident, the guy who charges 15% (lowest end) but who also drives a really expensive car, lol. 

 

I have no idea what the gross revenues are at big firms. Maybe I will find out in another ten years or so!

[Dr. Octavius]

That's like a million per lawyer, that's really high! Usually it's much easier to know what the salaries are than what gross revenues are. Your friend told you about gross revenues but not her salary?

 

$1 million is a pretty good book for a senior lawyer to have, and that's including fees collected from more junior lawyer's work. A junior like your Ferrari buying friend there wouldn't be able to generate more than about $350,000 to $400K a year I think, and then most of that goes to the partners and some to overhead, including staff (so max $100K for your friend).

 

There's also a difference between what you can bill and what you can collect. For example, if I had a 1st or 2nd year lawyer write a factum for me, I wouldn't be surprised if they billed 20 hours just to research and write a factum for a motion. In that case, I'd need to cut the bill in half. Poof, half the hours billed are gone... This depends on the area of law. Corporate would probably be the exception where most of the hours billed are collected on.

 

Personal injury law could be another exception. If they are very good at what they do, their revenues are not constrained by hours.  That's who you want if you ever get injured in a car accident, the guy who charges 15% (lowest end) but who also drives a really expensive car, lol. 

 

I have no idea what the gross revenues are at big firms. Maybe I will find out in another ten years or so!

Aha, I did a little research on my own and found their practice on a website (I think it was ZoomInfo.com) and it says that it generates $5-10 mil in revenue and has 20-50 employees (but I know for a fact that there are only 9-10 lawyers). Don't know how accurate the other numbers are. Sorry, I was genuinely curious - not trying to be creepy here.   A relative of mine was planning on pursuing law at one point, but wasn't comfortable with all the debt and recognized that incomes weren't as glamorous as most make them out to be. That's where my interest in this stuffy comes from, lol. Perhaps I should get the two to talk one day.

 

I am pretty sure the majority of their work is either family or real estate (I might have to get back to you on that one). It's one of the two for sure, though.

 

So when you say that they can probably only generate $350k-$400k, is that because of their limited experience? And then as you said the rest goes to beef up the partners' paycheques and cover overhead expenses.

 

And I am sure that you will find out soon! However, wouldn't that mean you'd get sucked back into the Toronto vortex? 

[makingfetchhappen]

Haha, no I will ask one of my friends to give me the inside scoop when they get there! 

I will PM you with some more info so as not to annoy people by thread jacking as they call it. 

[Falling]

Dang, I have an incredible craving for pop tarts.