The Most Unfair Undergraduate Program

[uwopremed]

LOL this is why I can't stand Queen's kids

 

 

 

Also LOL at this

Give me a break.  Queen's is a decent sized university in Kingston - a small city - so it relies on it's students from coming out of town.  People that rely on OSAP will often choose a university near to where they live - to take into account other expenses like visiting the folks and renting a place or needing a vehicle.  So the average Queen's undergrad will be generally a bit wealthier than others - can't hate on them for it.  And while you can't stand Queen's kids - you want to be a doctor yourself and make lots of money.  Do you want people resenting your kids for just being born to economically successful people?

[Hopeful]

I'm pretty amazed with what I've read here. I understand the goal of this program and of the health sciences degree at Mac but the problem I see is equality. 

 

For QuARMs... Yes, they are most likely exceptional students. However, only a select few people will have access to this opportunity. Also, I ask you if you could pick out the "most likely to succeed as a physician" from your graduating class. I doubt you, or anyone could. EVEN if they could reliably select 10 people with the absolute ability to become physicians, there is no purpose for this program. If their goal is to fast track education then why not simply allow second year undergraduates to apply? If their theory is right, they would select the same 10 people after the first two years of their degree. However, everyone would have the ability to apply, the applicants would be much more mature with a greater life perspective, and the main goal of fast tracking education would persist. For example, an 18 year old was accepted at the U of Alberta this year. 

 

For the health sciences degree... Again, my argument is based on equality and accessibility. If medical schools are going to accept applications from all schools then all of the schools should have equal acceptance rates. You shouldn't be selected based on an advantage your school gives you. Sure I could fly east and go to McMaster but how many people do? If that is your argument, the same could be said for the lack of access to health care for northern populations. Someone can say "well they can just fly to large cities." That's not equal access in my mind. If the program does in fact provide a benefit to becoming a physician then it should be offered at all the major schools. Either that or it should not be seen as a benefit in your application, which it obviously is currently. 

 

The medical community has worked VERY hard to achieve equality to access a career as a physician. Whether it be due to costs, race, sex, or location you live, efforts have been made to seek equality. These programs undermine that goal.

 

My question for the forum is this... What kind of actions (other than typing on a forum) have occurred for our voice to be heard?

[slumdogMD]

I'm pretty amazed with what I've read here. I understand the goal of this program and of the health sciences degree at Mac but the problem I see is equality. 

 

For QuARMs... Yes, they are most likely exceptional students. However, only a select few people will have access to this opportunity. Also, I ask you if you could pick out the "most likely to succeed as a physician" from your graduating class. I doubt you, or anyone could. EVEN if they could reliably select 10 people with the absolute ability to become physicians, there is no purpose for this program. If their goal is to fast track education then why not simply allow second year undergraduates to apply? If their theory is right, they would select the same 10 people after the first two years of their degree. However, everyone would have the ability to apply, the applicants would be much more mature with a greater life perspective, and the main goal of fast tracking education would persist. For example, an 18 year old was accepted at the U of Alberta this year. 

 

For the health sciences degree... Again, my argument is based on equality and accessibility. If medical schools are going to accept applications from all schools then all of the schools should have equal acceptance rates. You shouldn't be selected based on an advantage your school gives you. Sure I could fly east and go to McMaster but how many people do? If that is your argument, the same could be said for the lack of access to health care for northern populations. Someone can say "well they can just fly to large cities." That's not equal access in my mind. If the program does in fact provide a benefit to becoming a physician then it should be offered at all the major schools. Either that or it should not be seen as a benefit in your application, which it obviously is currently. 

 

The medical community has worked VERY hard to achieve equality to access a career as a physician. Whether it be due to costs, race, sex, or location you live, efforts have been made to seek equality. These programs undermine that goal.

 

My question for the forum is this... What kind of actions (other than typing on a forum) have occurred for our voice to be heard?

 

PREACH

[rupchatt]

McMaster Health Sci seems to inflate grades. However, we have bird programs all across the country. I think it is should be a premed strategy to pick easy programs. Easy means picking what u enjoy and can do well on. This depends on the person. ex: a physics major may get 4.0 in math related stuff but not necessarily philosophy at brock or health sci at mac/waterloo etc and vice versa. Doing well depends on many factors, and program difficulty is just one of them. Medical schools basically select people who are able to show success at undergrad level in the fields they love. They cant accurately measure or control program difficulty. They just want to see that you can commit to something you love and do well. I am not going to play the "victim role" here. we all are better than that. Saying that mac health students became docs cuz their programs easy is losers attitude. Note: the program is easy but its just one of the factors for success. If one believes they are better then they have to prove it by doing well in their own programs. The word fairness in premed does not exist. It is survival of the fittest. It is basically strategically picking courss u know u can do well. When you start on this journey you should make a decision that no matter how hard it gets or how long it takes you will follow this to the end. Blaming programs is not a winners attitude! sorry for being so blunt but im saying this for u cuz i care

 

pce

[scmed2306]

 health sci at mac/waterloo etc and vice versa.

 

Just out of curiosity, are you implying that it is relatievly "easier" to get an exceptional GPA at Waterloo? As far as I know, Waterloo is known for grade deflation and notoriously difficult lab reports. Grade deflation might only apply to Engineering/Math/Compsci, but correct me if I am wrong.

[Jaybird]

LOL this is why I can't stand Queen's kids

 

Just, uh, let me get that chip off your shoulder there. I love my alma mater, zits and all.

[Throwaway]

For the health sciences degree... Again, my argument is based on equality and accessibility. If medical schools are going to accept applications from all schools then all of the schools should have equal acceptance rates. You shouldn't be selected based on an advantage your school gives you. Sure I could fly east and go to McMaster but how many people do? If that is your argument, the same could be said for the lack of access to health care for northern populations. Someone can say "well they can just fly to large cities." That's not equal access in my mind. If the program does in fact provide a benefit to becoming a physician then it should be offered at all the major schools. Either that or it should not be seen as a benefit in your application, which it obviously is currently. 

 

I'm confused, are you arguing that healthsci effectively trains students and that it is unfair that medical schools invite these students who are most prepared for medical training?  Or are you saying that medical schools have a blind preference for healthscis?

[Stegalls]

Medical schools are still blind for health sci's. A lot of people forget that health sciences receives over 3000 applications for 160 spots. Lets assume first that 200 offers are given out that is a 6.6% acceptance rate which is around the same as the Ivies. 

 

Is it then any wonder that half get into medical school? 

 

Are people shocked that Ivy League undergraduates get into medical school at a higher proportion than undergraduates of less competitive/prestigious universities? 

[uwopremed]

Medical schools are still blind for health sci's. A lot of people forget that health sciences receives over 3000 applications for 160 spots. Lets assume first that 200 offers are given out that is a 6.6% acceptance rate which is around the same as the Ivies. 

 

Is it then any wonder that half get into medical school? 

 

Are people shocked that Ivy League undergraduates get into medical school at a higher proportion than undergraduates of less competitive/prestigious universities? 

 

Ivy League schools take in students from ALL of the United states.  The take into account a standardized test (the SATS), class rank, and difficulty of high school.  And even then, they don't have such a high rate of medical school acceptance (if you take all 8 ivy league schools together).  The acceptance rate of Ivy League schools also takes into account that people with high marks often don't apply because of semi stellar SATS or ECs.  This is less of a deterrent for Health Sciences - a program with over 90% of it's students from Ontario (a single province). 

 

Comparing Health Sciences to top Ivy League schools is comical (though grade inflation at the Ivies is also pretty darn awful too).  Brown university and Harvard  gives almost every As, while Princeton (the hardest to get into) gives low marks still because they maintain standards.   http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21615616-not-what-it-used-be-grade-expectations  is a chart.

[StriveP]

Medical schools are still blind for health sci's. A lot of people forget that health sciences receives over 3000 applications for 160 spots. Lets assume first that 200 offers are given out that is a 6.6% acceptance rate which is around the same as the Ivies. 

 

Is it then any wonder that half get into medical school? 

 

Are people shocked that Ivy League undergraduates get into medical school at a higher proportion than undergraduates of less competitive/prestigious universities? 

 

This is ridiculous. You do realize getting into MacHealth science isn't that hard right? You can pay your way by taking private school courses for under $5k. And high school grades don't mean nothing. I know some high schools literally just hand out 90s to half their students and those students get Cs and Bs in universities. Whereas in other high schools the highest average is 93%, like the one I went to. 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Yup. I know a good handful of people who had their parents dish out a few grand to attend Gr. 12 at a private school so they could get 90s and attend Health Sci, Schulich business, etc. They certainly were not the brightest kids in their classes to begin with but they're doing much better than everyone else now.

[Stegalls]

You know that you still have to write an essay for application, I guess you could get someone to write it for you. Whatever the case, its better just to do your best in your own circumstances instead of blaming others for "having it easy". 

[Stegalls]

Ivy League schools take in students from ALL of the United states.  The take into account a standardized test (the SATS), class rank, and difficulty of high school.  And even then, they don't have such a high rate of medical school acceptance (if you take all 8 ivy league schools together).  The acceptance rate of Ivy League schools also takes into account that people with high marks often don't apply because of semi stellar SATS or ECs.  This is less of a deterrent for Health Sciences - a program with over 90% of it's students from Ontario (a single province). 

 

Comparing Health Sciences to top Ivy League schools is comical (though grade inflation at the Ivies is also pretty darn awful too).  Brown university and Harvard  gives almost every As, while Princeton (the hardest to get into) gives low marks still because they maintain standards.   http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21615616-not-what-it-used-be-grade-expectations  is a chart.

 

Location doesn't matter, Health Sci does take in students from all over the country it just so happens the students are mainly form Ontario. 

 

You didn't back up your data about their rate of med school acceptance. Look at Brown, it is http://brown.edu/academics/college/advising/health-careers/medical-admission-data-snapshot consistently around 80-90%. The same can be said of the other Ivies. 

 

My point is the oft repeated one, when you get 160 of some of the brightest students you get 80 or so going into medical school. Its not that surprising, don't forget 80 of them don't and those may be the people who had their essays written for them or who "bought" their grades. 

 

Their admissions system is far from perfect no doubt which is why plenty of people go into other undergraduate programs and still get into medical school in Canada, this is still the large majority of applicants.

 

Considering there are something around 800-900 spots in Ontario each year, only about 80-100 are taken by health sci students at best. That is only 10%.  

[Organomegaly]

Location doesn't matter, Health Sci does take in students from all over the country it just so happens the students are mainly form Ontario. 

 

Not exactly true - there is a IP/OOP quota for health sciences admissions (don't know what it is though). 

[uwopremed]

Location doesn't matter, Health Sci does take in students from all over the country it just so happens the students are mainly form Ontario. 

 

You didn't back up your data about their rate of med school acceptance. Look at Brown, it is http://brown.edu/academics/college/advising/health-careers/medical-admission-data-snapshot consistently around 80-90%. The same can be said of the other Ivies. 

 

My point is the oft repeated one, when you get 160 of some of the brightest students you get 80 or so going into medical school. Its not that surprising, don't forget 80 of them don't and those may be the people who had their essays written for them or who "bought" their grades. 

 

Their admissions system is far from perfect no doubt which is why plenty of people go into other undergraduate programs and still get into medical school in Canada, this is still the large majority of applicants.

 

Considering there are something around 800-900 spots in Ontario each year, only about 80-100 are taken by health sci students at best. That is only 10%.  

 

I'm not talking about the admission rate, I'm talking about the total number of students in the program that eventually get into medicine.  At Health SCiences, nearly 60% or so EVENTUALLY get into medicine.  That is not even remotely true at Brown - those that get poor MCATS or poor marks don't even bother applying to medical school.  Virtually no one gets poor marks in Health Sciences - you essentially have to try to get bad marks in some of their courses.  And it should be added that Brown university is renowned for it's awful grade inflation in the first place, AND, it is much easier to get into medical schools in the USA as well than it is in Ontario.

 

 

The vast majority of Health Science students are from Ontario.  And I do think there is even some provincial preference anyways.  No Ivy league school has any single state with more than 25% of their student body (not even Cornell or Columbia, which you might expect being in heavily populated NY State). 

 

I believe there are close to 100 health sciences admitted to medical schools in Ontario every year.  Most go to Toronto, MAC or Ottawa.  So we are talking about 12% or so (and excluding NOSM and French stream Ottawa, maybe 15%).  That is a crazy high number for all of Ontario from a single program at one school.  Especially because Toronto, Western, and Queen's are much more prestigious undergraduate universities in the first place.  I believe health sciences has more medical students in Ontario than ALL programs at UofT provide.

 

So yes...Mac Health Sciences is a problem.  And I suspect that within the next 5 years, it will be dealt with.  The new MCAT may change things up a bit though first.

[Cristiano Ronaldo]

[please delete]

[Organomegaly]

This is ridiculous. You do realize getting into MacHealth science isn't that hard right? You can pay your way by taking private school courses for under $5k. And high school grades don't mean nothing. I know some high schools literally just hand out 90s to half their students and those students get Cs and Bs in universities. Whereas in other high schools the highest average is 93%, like the one I went to. 

 

Marks wont help you past a 90% cutoff, although the average high school G in BHSc is around 96%. 

 

After you meet 90.0, it's all on the essay. 

[LeftSharkRealMVP]

Jesus there are too many seriously butthurt people here. Stop whining about who has it easier, or what program's easier, it will literally do no good for you. Instead of complaining, why don't people start putting more effort into improving their own grades or ECs. 

 

Yes there will always be easier programs where people get higher marks. Is this really groundbreaking news to you though??? There will never be a time when everything is absolutely equal for everyone, so there is no point in complaining about it. Spend your energy doing what you can to make your application as strong as it can be. And if it's still not strong enough, then maybe you're just not cut out for a medical career. 

PS. I'm not at Queens or Mac Health Sci, I'm actually getting my bachelor's in life sciences at McGill, and I have numerous Ontario interviews this years. Yea, I've had to work my ass off (probably way more than people in health sci or whatever), but I knew what I was getting myself in from the start, I was prepared to face the consequences, and I'm not going to complain about it now. 

[uwopremed]

Jesus there are too many seriously butthurt people here. Stop whining about who has it easier, or what program's easier, it will literally do no good for you. Instead of complaining, why don't people start putting more effort into improving their own grades or ECs. 

 

Yes there will always be easier programs where people get higher marks. Is this really groundbreaking news to you though??? There will never be a time when everything is absolutely equal for everyone, so there is no point in complaining about it. Spend your energy doing what you can to make your application as strong as it can be. And if it's still not strong enough, then maybe you're just not cut out for a medical career. 

 

PS. I'm not at Queens or Mac Health Sci, I'm actually getting my bachelor's in life sciences at McGill, and I have numerous Ontario interviews this years. Yea, I've had to work my ass off (probably way more than people in health sci or whatever), but I knew what I was getting myself in from the start, I was prepared to face the consequences, and I'm not going to complain about it now. 

I think talking about theses issues is very reasonable.  I have a boatload of interviews so far (Calgary, Western, Queen's, Ottawa, McMaster) and had a 4.0 with a 40 MCAT.  BUT I can see the problem with grade inflation and how it basically ruins the ability to discern incredible students from good students.  The issue is probably even worse for the top level graduate programs in the world - where having genuinely brilliant students is important (and not just people with 4.0s that worked hard in an easy program).  But it also creates issues in the medical school admission process.

 

There are few outlets to really whine about this - so premed101 is a good a place as any.  I know that this is a concern among many doctors, including those involved in admissions.  But there is simply no fair way yet to lower marks from some programs, while raising them in others, without causing controversy and opening up oneselves to lawsuits.  So some of the schools find ways around it.  At MAC, your verbal is worth just as much as your whole GPA, and at Western, really only the MCAT is used for interview invite discrimination (3.7 in only 2 years should be doable in almost any program by a premed, even engineering).  But some, like Toronto, stubbornly hold on to GPA is king, despite the complete inability to use GPA to discern top students anymore as basically thousands are clustered between 3.92 and 4.00.

 

Oh well.

[medici]

And now Calgary is starting their fresh out of diapers program as well. Soon we'll be just like the MBBS's.

[Edict]

And now Calgary is starting their fresh out of diapers program as well. Soon we'll be just like the MBBS's.

 

Link? Please note that McGill has had a program like this for years and its much larger, don't see anyone complaining. 

[Yuusui]

Dang, all I get from this forum is all this hate on the health sciences kids... And I bet most (if not all) of the people complaining are people who applied to Health Sciences and could not get in. I applied and didn't get in. So what? Grow up and work harder on improving yourself. I swear if people spent less time complaining about other people's "advantages" they would get to med school sooner!

[RicardoKaká]

Just my opinion, but I think it is the journey of getting into medical school that will help shape and define who you are, and the physician you become to be.

 

Sure there may be some programs easier than others and people matriculating into medicine earlier due to these advantages, but life itself is unfair. This should not detract someone who is intelligent and hard-working from getting into medical school.

 

If you have the marks and the MCAT and you are a good human being, someone will see this eventually and it will be your turn, just be patient and keep working on yourself. You will be a better candidate at life because you knew what it was like to struggle, to work hard, and what it means to overcome these challenges 

[FeministKilljoy]

Just my opinion, but I think it is the journey of getting into medical school that will help shape and define who you are, and the physician you become to be.

 

Sure there may be some programs easier than others and people matriculating into medicine earlier due to these advantages, but life itself is unfair. This should not detract someone who is intelligent and hard-working from getting into medical school.

 

If you have the marks and the MCAT and you are a good human being, someone will see this eventually and it will be your turn, just be patient and keep working on yourself. You will be a better candidate at life because you knew what it was like to struggle, to work hard, and what it means to overcome these challenges 

 

 

yes to all of this! standing ovation!

[NeuroD]

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